Firemans lifts

[Paul1979]

Hi

Just looking for some advice from anyone...

In a purpose built block of flats (over 18m) which was built in 1970's would you still expect to find a firemans lift (what is now pc known as a firefighters lift)??

Does anyone have any clues when building regs started to require firemans/firefighters lifts?

Any advice/steer much appreciated as always!

[Messy]

I understand - although I am no fire safety historian so I could be wrong - that the earliest codes for firefighting standards go back to the 1940s, but I have never seen them.

However in January 1962 , British Standard CP3 was published. Chapter IV gave guidance in broadly the same way Building Regs do now into the construction of buildings over 80 feet high. This measurement was selected as fire service ladders would struggle to reach higher floors.

Paragraph 706 related to 'Fire Lifts' and stated
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706. Fire lifts.

A normal passenger lift or lifts should be arranged so as to be available for the exclusive use of firemen in an emergency by providing at ground level a switch in a glass fronted box marked ' FIRE SWITCH' which operates a control whereby firemen can obtain the use of the lift without interference from the landing call points. . Alternatively, the fire switch may be in a box protected by a metal cover and which can be unlocked by a key which would pass the dry riser box and any other locks which would require to be opened by the fire brigade.

A sufficient number of lifts should be arranged as fire lifts to ensure that in fiats, every floor (except, under the circumstances described below, the top floor} and in maisonettes every entrance floor, has direct access to at least one such lift. A fire lift should not be more than about 15 ft from a main staircase if that is the only staircase to which there is access, or about 50 ft if there is another staircase on the same floor to which there is access. In addition, if a fire lift is not in a main staircase enclosure or within 15 ft of a door in a main staircase enclosure it should be within 15 ft of a smoke-stop door across a corridor that leads to a main staircase.

In order to ease the difficulty of accommodating the space necessary for over~ run at the top of the shaft for a high speed lift it is considered that a fire lift need not serve the top floor of a building provided the lift is not more than 15 ft from a main staircase on the floor below, the hydrant outlet on the top floor is within the staircase enclosure or in a ventilated lobby adjoining the staircase, and the number of fiats on the top floor does not exceed eight.

A fire lift should have a platform area of not less than 15~ sq ft and be capable of carrying a load of 1200 lb. Its speed should be such that it can reach the top floor from ground level within one minute. TI1e electric supply to any fire lift should be provided by a sub-main circuit exclusive to the lift, except that where the fire lift is one of a battery of not more than six lifts (whether fire lifts or not) the other lifts may be fed from the same supply. The cables supplying current to the lift motor should pass through routes of negligible fire risk.

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I believe this may be the first code of practice relating to fire lifts in residential buildings

Don't forget this for building over 80ft in height - so 24.3 metres. Using CP3's (slightly flawed) rationale, any building lower than that could be reached by fire service ladders so would not need a fire lift

[Paul1979]

Legend - thank you as always Messy!

[witsd]

...a firemans lift (what is now pc known as a firefighters lift)?...

My understanding has always been that a fireman's lift is just a normal lift that can be switched over to disable other controls, giving firemen full control over the lift.

A firefighting lift is a far different beast, requiring a protected lift shaft and an independent, protected power source.

I've only once seen the latter in multi-storey flats (and the power source wasn't functional!), but every single MSF I know of (mostly 1960s builds) has a fireman's lift.

[Messy]

You are spot on wltsd - there is a difference and a significant one

Fire lifts of Firemen's lifts are fitted in many commercial and residential buildings and have few of the safeguards I would want when taking a lift up to a fire scene. But for fire crews who are not familiar with the building, its impossible to determine immediately. I hope now information packs are required on blocks of flats, that info may start to become available.

To be fair, the Fire Lifts in CP3 are not 'Firefighting lifts' as there is no assurance of a protected means of escape from the firefighting lift

As an example, I did a visit to a 12 storey office building in central London a couple of years ago. The landlord boasted an evacuation system was in place using their 'firefighting lift'

This was a 1980 block with a central concrete core containing stairs at either end and lifts in the middle. One lift was a fire lift NOT a firefighting lift. Although it had a secondary power supply, there was no means of escape from any lift lobby without moving through an office area - which of course, could be alight). There were many grumpy faces when I said their evacuation plan was not suitable or sufficient

[Paul1979]

As an example, I did a visit to a 12 storey office building in central London a couple of years ago. The landlord boasted an evacuation system was in place using their 'firefighting lift'

This was a 1980 block with a central concrete core containing stairs at either end and lifts in the middle. One lift was a fire lift NOT a firefighting lift. Although it had a secondary power supply, there was no means of escape from any lift lobby without moving through an office area - which of course, could be alight). There were many grumpy faces when I said their evacuation plan was not suitable or sufficient
MOE.png

Eeeeek!! We manage a few similar sounding properties to the one you mention (spread out in various parts of our beloved kingdom here) where the buildings managing agents fire evacuation plan includes the use of such lifts as you talk about for disabled evacuation - but none of the floors where the lifts stop have direct access to a final access!! All have to pass through some sort of communal area / office / reception before reaching the final exit to fresh air..........never been picked up on FRA reports either!!

Is there a generic guide we can go to so that we can highlight to the landlords of these buildings what a lift must have to be used as part of a disabled evacuation procedure?? I can then go to the landlord and building managing agents and highlight the flaw and say we need new FRA's and evacuation plans...

Really interesting reading your comments - yet very scary what gaps there are out there in the big wide world of fire safety!!!!!

Much appreciated

[Messy]

It is possible to use lifts for evacuation that are not designed as such or even not meant for fire service use - subject to a technical risk assessment

There's more info on the link below, but you will see that the technical assessment may need to consider the suitability of 'lobby protection' - so the idea in my example that not only is there no staircase lobby, there is no staircase This was the reason I decided it was unacceptable.

Some may take a different view. IMO, if the lift failed and discharged its evacuees on a floor with no stairs, this is unacceptable. I could never accept a position where any relevant person could be placed in a position where there was no escape route (other than in a prison or locked mental health or similar where there would be a system to overcome this risk).


https://app.croneri.co.uk/feature-artic ... roduct=143

[stephen1974]

To me, a firemans lift is tossing someone over your shoulder and doing shuttle runs up and down the parade ground whilst some PTI screams at you.

[Messy]

To me, a firemans lift is tossing someone over your shoulder and doing shuttle runs up and down the parade ground whilst some PTI screams at you.

That takes me back 100 years. I was barely 18 and was at the London Fire Brigade recruitment centre for an assessment day.

I invested in a new suit as I needed to impress. But the day was hot- very hot. So after two medicals, three classroom tests and lunch, I faced a 50m dash doing a 'Fireman's Lift' to a fellow recruit across a car park in 30c heat.

Then it was the interview. My new suit was wrecked ..... but I got the job and managed several more Fireman's lifts' before I retired - two of them down ladders

[stephen1974]

Last one i did was my drunk mate out a the student union bar way back in 97.