Fire evacuation dilemma

[MrsPeacockinthestudy]

Morning everyone,

I've recently started a new post and am trying to get my head round one of the buildings in terms of their fire evacuation. It's a public building in a city centre, by day it does corporate hires plus a cinema and cafe. By night it's a gig venue plus cinema and bar. Overall capacity in the building is 700 at peak occupation although during the day its more likely to be around 50. I'm concerned that the current evacuation procedures are not sufficient during the day, as there are not large numbers of staff on site (usually 3 at a maximum, all based at the front of the building).

The building has three main fire exits, with the assembly point being in a public pedestrian area at the front. The other two fire exits lead to the rear of the building, one at ground level the other at the top level of the public car park. Both these exits are some distance from the assembly point, and currently it is expected that people will walk round the exterior (or through this car park) to the assembly point at the front of the building. When we timed this with staff it was an additional 3 minute walk. Most of the people evacuating via this way will be members of the public who are unfamiliar with the building and may not have a member of staff with them either. I would like to have additional assembly points at the rear of the building near both of these two fire exits rather than expecting people to make a long walk round, but there isn't a reliable number of staff on site to do this.

I have other concerns about there not being a proper procedure for sweeping the building, as currently it seems to rely on one member of staff going through all the areas (its a rabbit warren of a place) while other staff (of which there is one or two at a maximum) are at the front fire exit preventing members of the public from trying to come in while the alarm is sounding - yes it always happens. Evacuation time through the main exit was at 2 and a half minutes at last practice - not including the additional 3 minutes for those coming round the back of the building to the assembly point.

I'd really appreciate if more experienced forum users could help me try to sort this one as I'm stumped on how to manage it properly. The fire risk assessment identifies that a review is needed of procedures but that's it. I hope I've explained it but I can elaborate if needed!

Thanks very much

[Messy]

Apologies but I am unavailable to comment in detail about this enquiry right now but something that strikes me is the fire risk assessment part

You say the findings say you should review your emergency evac procedures but doesn't give any options

Assuming you are in England or Wales the Fir Safety order states

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isk assessment

9.—(1) The responsible person must make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks to which relevant persons are exposed for the purpose of identifying the general fire precautions he needs to take to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed on him by or under this Order.

_________________

It says the FRA should identify what you need to do to be compliant. Yours doesn't do that but merely points you in the direction of travel

In short IMO it's been a bit lazy. I wouldn't expect a FRA to recommend you to buy a fire alarm system without detailing what category or grade you need

The FRA should widen to provide the advice on the revised emergency plan. I am retired not but my FRAs always reviewed the EP

Did the FRA mention PEEPs? From your daytime staffing levels this could be a bigger issue?

[MrsPeacockinthestudy]

Hi Messy, thank you for your reply!

I agree that the FRA is lazy - it does say that the current assembly point is sufficient, which it is, but makes no mention of the other two exit points and how they should be managed.

Regarding PEEPs, the site currently doesn't have any and this has been identified in the FRA as an action, which I'm also working on. I agreed that with the current staffing levels it makes that difficult to manage too. But there is no chance of getting more staff in.

[witsd]

Hang on, you are running a cinema and a cafe with just 3 staff?

Or is it three staff who work for the building which has other businesses (with their own staff) operating within?

[MrsPeacockinthestudy]

Hi witsd - yes it is 3 staff running the entire building. For context the cinema is a small single screen and the cafe is tiny (and doesn't do any actual cooking) so it's not a big operation like Cineworld etc.

[witsd]

Okay, the absolute minimum that you need to achieve is ensuring that everyone can leave the building (unless they refuse which I can see happening in a cinema!) which will likely require at least some kind of sweep system. At that point, you are going to need each member of staff manning the fire exit doors to prevent entry.

If the only people present are the three staff members and the public, then I see no real need for an assembly point at all - what are you intending to do there - take a register of the public? Just get them out of the building and into a place from which they can get further away if needed, ideally without getting in the FRS' way. Give the three staff radios, so they can talk and confirm each is out and by their exit.

The real difficulty here is with the sweep. I wouldn't want anyone doing that alone in case they got into difficulty, and given the description of the place it may take a good couple of minutes for a single duo to sweep all areas, as the third person will absolutely need to be manning the front doors / perusing the fire panel to identify the cause of the alarm.

You also imply that there are sometimes only two staff on site "one or two [other staff] at a maximum".

If there are only two people on, I don't see how you can adequately manage an evacuation. 3, just, if everyone knows what they are doing, and you disregard the assembly point idea.

[Messy]

I agree with wltsd that the resources available do make formulating a suitable and sufficient emergency plan look increasingly challenging.

I am still concerned that you were short changed by your fire risk assessor as it is clearly not good enough to get your car checked over and the garage to say that they confirm there's a squeak coming from the back of the car but leave you to determine what it is and what to do about it .

I fear this problem is not one that is easily solved 'blind' as it were and you might need some professional help. I suggest you do NOT contact the initial assessor as he or she are likely to provide solutions that are impossible or not cost effective to implement. When contacting a professional you would benefit by asking for a list of solution options and then the professional's opinion of which option is best.

Just to get my head around this a bit more:
Has your premises got an entertainment licence?
Do you provide staff training?
Have you held a fire drill?

A sweep system using the minimum of two persons should be considered, but whether two is sufficient really does depend on the size and layout of the building.

You really do need to sort out PEEPs at the same time as your emergency plan. Frankly you are in a vulnerable position legally. Not knowing you should be doing something is bad enough, but knowing you need to do more and delaying is not great if an issue goes to court (I am NOT suggesting you are delaying action, but that is an allegation that might come your way)

Please consider getting professional help but at this time do not contact the fire service or council as they may take action and make your headache even worse

[MrsPeacockinthestudy]

Thanks both, really helpful to talk it through

R.e. assembly points, I see the point about not needing them if we have enough staff to sweep the building, which we don't. Ultimately this all boils down to a lack of staff doesn't it.

To answer some other questions, yes we do have an entertainment license. As for staff training, this hasn't been done in years, nor any fire drills since Covid. And there is no PEEP (this is something else I need to sort out). This is public sector so...

I think the idea of getting a professional in to help is a good one!

Thanks both for all your help!

[witsd]

Messy, I'm curious as to what a PEEP in this sort of building would look like to you.

A GEEP, sure, but I would only be doing PEEPs if a member of staff had a disability or something like that.

MrsPeacock - get that training sorted asap – that's not going to be deemed acceptable if something happens by any stretch! Drills are more fiddly, as doing them when it's just staff doesn't capture a realistic situation, and doing them when members of the public are present isn't really feasible. You may end up just playing lip-service to that, so beef up the training to compensate.

[Messy]

Messy, I'm curious as to what a PEEP in this sort of building would look like to you.

A GEEP, sure, but I would only be doing PEEPs if a member of staff had a disability or something like that.

You are right of course. I was referring to the fact that staff should be trained and equipment should be supplied (if necessary) to deal with evacuating mobility impaired persons. So not really a personal evacuation plan per se. How you do that with 3 or 2 staff is tricky!!!


MrsPeacock

I was only referring to your Ents licence as I was wondering if the LA audit your FRA during the process?

Good luck with your task and it would be really useful if you could come back with how this has been resolved in due course

[MrsPeacockinthestudy]

Thanks again both! I've checked our Ents license and the only referral to FRA is around the capacity of the building.

I've organised staff training since my last post, and I'll report back with how I manage to resolve this

[witsd]

You are right of course. I was referring to the fact that staff should be trained and equipment should be supplied (if necessary) to deal with evacuating mobility impaired persons. So not really a personal evacuation plan per se. How you do that with 3 or 2 staff is tricky!!!

Ah, okay, I'm with you now.

Well, it depends upon the layout really, and there has to be a degree of common sense. If I pop into a corner shop and the fire alarm goes off and I happen to break a leg on a newspaper rack in my hurry to get out, should the proprietor be expected to whip out an evacuation sled and pull me to safety? Obviously not. At some point that starts to change, and to be honest, I'm not sure where I would draw that line.

If stair use is essential and wheelchair users will frequently be present, if older demographics are statistically more likely to be present, if more extreme physical activities are taking place... etc. etc.

I'm not sure that I'd require a small cinema / cafe set-up to be armed to the teeth with training and evac chairs or similar. I'd probably just write it into the FRA as something like: "It is not considered sufficiently likely that evacuating persons would be injured or otherwise unable to self-evacuate with minimal guidance from staff during an alarm activation to necessitate evacuation equipment or further training. In the event that alterations are made to the building or the occupancy profile, this should be revisited."

Obviously, the 'I've not seen the building' caveat should be applied here.