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Sonic door holders

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Paul1979
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Sonic door holders

Post by Paul1979 »

I’m after peoples opinion on something if I may - in premises with sleeping risk, do you consider Dorgards as acceptable along protected escape routes?

Also, what about similar sonic devices on kitchens where Heat detection is installed?

Reason for asking is that we manage some buildings used for specialized housing and have always been told (rightly or wrongly) that sonic door holders are a big no when it comes to protecting escape routes and also must not be used where heat detection is installed, unless a smoke detector is fitted the other side of door (which can then lead to spurious alarm actuations).

Local Fire Authorities during recent audit have told the client that Dorgards are acceptable though….so I’m being challenged by the RP.

Any experience or thoughts always appreciated. .salut
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Penfold »

Hi Paul

In Fire safety "Sleeping Accommodation" guide it states in sleeping areas that are self contained (e.g. door guards) that are not connected directly to a fire alarm system do not meet the criteria in the guide (see page 124 -125 of the guide). We discussed this a lot on recent 5 day fire risk assessment course and they said if in sleeping accommodation door guards are not acceptable unless your FRA can prove they are equal or better to a mag lock type system

Link to guide:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... ion_v2.pdf

Hope this helps?

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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Ian Rienewerf »

Penfold has the correct answer. Although I am unsure why the doors need to be held open in the first place.

Risk is subjective, so the type of occupants living and sleeping in the "specialised housing" would play a part in finding the correct answer.
For example - disability or learning difficulty occupants may not be able to operate the "stamp down" Dorgard units correctly.

The only situation I have had which is similar is a day care child nursery with a baby room (appx 6 cots for under 2-year olds) where the staff needed an open door to visually check the children were OK without opening & banging doors.
I suggested that the (wedged open) door needed to be closed at all times, as it opened onto the stairway landing which was the one-single escape route available, shared with a high fire risk staff kitchenette at the other side of the landing (toaster, kettle, microwave, fridge etc).

Hard wired magnetic holders would have been the ideal option - but the cost/benefit of tearing the building apart to fit the wiring and hook it up to the basic fire alarm was not reasonably practical. Therefore Dorgards were raised as an action point to replace the wooden door wedges.

Note: the nursery staff were competent to use the Dorgards correctly, and this was a temporary day-time sleeping arrangement with fire marshal staff onsite at all times.
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Messy »

I am not a fan of dorgards and similar acoustic door holders. I cannot ever see them being 'equal or better' than a hardwired alternative. But where the cost of installing or especially retrofitting magnetic door holders makes it a non starter, then a dorgard is a million times better than a wedge!!!!

As for not allowing dorgards where there is heat detection, of course this is a sensible approach. But consider a job I had: A 3 storey pub, with it's kitchen on the first floor and managers flat above - single staircase conditions

The kitchen led almost directly onto the staircase and was wedged during food serving hours. It was impossible to open the door when carrying plates of food and no way to alter the door. I could have been pedantic and insisted no wedge, and a self closing door at all times. How often would that door be wedged? I guess every day

So we chatted to the licensing authority and local fire service who agreed to a dorgard (even though there was only heat detection in the kitchen). The door would be closed at the end of the food serving period. In fact we installed a dorgard that closed automatically 30 mins after the kitchen closed, in case staff forgot

We also considered if a deep fat fire and staff run out and the door is left open. We got around that by installing additional manual call points - one in the kitchen and another just outside the kitchen door with large signs.



The point of mentioning this job is that the published Fire Safety Guidance is just that - guidance and other solutions are often available. I approached the fire authority and said if we apply the self closing fire door it will not work. Staff can't deliver food to the pub and if they try, the risk of injury - including scalds- was very high. If the kitchen is unusable, the pub will have to close. I presented our plan to both parties over (a dry) lunch in the pub and thankfully, pragmatism worked. Its always work a try
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Paul1979 »

Thank you all for your responses - really useful information!
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Paul1979 »

Messy wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:10 pm As for not allowing dorgards where there is heat detection, of course this is a sensible approach.
Sorry - this is going to sound like a really silly question to you - but what is the main issue with having heat detectors and the sonic door holders together? Is it the longer period it takes for the heat detector to recognise a fire? Or something else?? Just wanted to know for my own curiosity .scratch
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Messy »

Paul. That's is exactly the issue
Heat detectors will always react more slowly and are generally used to prevent false fire alarm actuation (kitchens, boiler rooms, hotel bedroons)
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Paul1979 »

Messy wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:04 am Paul. That's is exactly the issue
Heat detectors will always react more slowly and are generally used to prevent false fire alarm actuation (kitchens, boiler rooms, hotel bedroons)
Going off the trail a little there...I didnt think hotel bedrooms could have heat detectors any more?
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Messy »

Paul1979 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:18 am
Messy wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:04 am Paul. That's is exactly the issue
Heat detectors will always react more slowly and are generally used to prevent false fire alarm actuation (kitchens, boiler rooms, hotel bedroons)
Going off the trail a little there...I didnt think hotel bedrooms could have heat detectors any more?
You may be right as I haven't got a copy of BS5839-1 at hand but until recently heat was allowed in hotel bedrooms to mitigate the effect of steam from en suites causing false alarms.

Between 2007 and 2013, The Govt's Chief Fire and Rescue Advisor (Ken Knight) made a determination when a Responsible Person (RP) appealed against a decision made by a local fire enforcement authority. The RP said the HM Fire Safety Guide for Sleeping Accommodation refers to BS5839-1 as the definitive guide to use when determining fire arm design and that allows for heat detection in bedrooms other than disabled bedroom

The Fire Authority said the heat detection doesn't protect the relevant persons in the bedroom

The Govt advisor concluded that (in my words) heat detection is part of the fire detection system aimed at keeping the corridors clear for the escape of all persons in the hotel and it is wholly suitable at this hotel

I have found the determination but not the date here
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... f_fire.pdf

If that advice has changed (and IMHO, I think it should), I would be obliged if someone could point me to any reference documentation to that change

Thanks
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Paul1979
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Re: Sonic door holders

Post by Paul1979 »

I've just had a quick look and I think you are spot on, they dont insist upon Smoke detection in hotel rooms, unless likely to be used by disabled and/or elderly...wow!!

I have also stumbled across something called the 'Purple Guide' which also seems to suggest that Heat detection in the hotel rooms is suitable & sufficient as long as corridors and stairways to be used as means of escape have smoke detection. Seems to be a big issue with the risk of false alarms in hotel rooms caused by steam (showers and kettles) plus the odd guest having a cheeky smoke...
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