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Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

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joaorosa80
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Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by joaorosa80 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:55 am

Regarding the below...
"The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
Emergency routes and exits
2 (f)emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may require to use them in an emergency;"
Regardless of the date when the building was built, is this something that you normally highlight on the Fire RA?
How can we manage this in an old door in a building leased to a local authority, where a simple change of the latch doesn't solve the problem?

All the best.

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by Messy » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:52 am

I am not sure I understand the problem

A door on a means of escape needs to be available and easy to open regardless of the buildings age. The method of opening is more dependant on the use of the building with a theatre requiring panic bolt fastenings (push bar) to cope with a crush situation and a forensic mental health unit having locked doors and staff carrying keys

Can you provide more detail?

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by joaorosa80 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 am

Hi @Messy
Messy wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:52 am
I am not sure I understand the problem

A door on a means of escape needs to be available and easy to open regardless of the buildings age. The method of opening is more dependant on the use of the building with a theatre requiring panic bolt fastenings (push bar) to cope with a crush situation and a forensic mental health unit having locked doors and staff carrying keys

Can you provide more detail?
I am describing an office door. You have a normal latch, that allows you to leave the building locking the door from outside, without being able opening from inside unless you have a key (turning the knob, will not open the door.)
I know that regulation says "where necessary", but in this case, I believe is necessary.
I will get a "Break Glass Key Box"

Regards,

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by Messy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:33 am

Be careful with keys in boxes. They are not always accepted by enforcing authorities.

Most doors can be fitted with latches that open with a handle from the inside but can't be opened from the outdoor. Think of a front door rim lock

Are you saying the door needs to be mortised from each direction? Avoid keys in boxes if you can

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by stephen1974 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:40 pm

Im pretty sure you can buy a setup that will have pushbar access from the inside but key access from the outside. If the company has a competent maintenance guy he could probably install it and the cost would be £100 to £150 depending on what and who you buy from. Not actually seen one instaled but i've seen companies advertising them.


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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by bernicarey » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:52 pm

joaorosa80 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 am


I am describing an office door. You have a normal latch, that allows you to leave the building locking the door from outside, without being able opening from inside unless you have a key (turning the knob, will not open the door.)

Regards,
So it's an emergency door that can't be opened because it's been locked from the outside?

Not allowed ever. It's not an emergency door if it can't be opened.

There's plenty of examples of doors with interior fitment that is anything from push-bar to door handle, which can be locked or unlocked from the outside.
You have these on the inside:
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/emergency-b ... push-pads/
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/panic-bars- ... -or-bolts/
And these on the outside:
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/external-access-devices/
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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by joaorosa80 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:54 am

Messy wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:33 am
Be careful with keys in boxes. They are not always accepted by enforcing authorities.

Most doors can be fitted with latches that open with a handle from the inside but can't be opened from the outdoor. Think of a front door rim lock

Are you saying the door needs to be mortised from each direction? Avoid keys in boxes if you can
The fire brigade has visited the building for a "fire audit" and never appointed as a concern. In fact, one of the buildings that we take over last year does have a key box.
I do agree that a key box isn't the best solution but the possible until we move next year after more than 20 years.
The lock that doesn~t allow to the opening from inside are the ones that work with "skeleton Keys".
stephen1974 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:40 pm
Im pretty sure you can buy a setup that will have pushbar access from the inside but key access from the outside. If the company has a competent maintenance guy he could probably install it and the cost would be £100 to £150 depending on what and who you buy from. Not actually seen one instaled but i've seen companies advertising them.
bernicarey wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:52 pm

So it's an emergency door that can't be opened because it's been locked from the outside?

Not allowed ever. It's not an emergency door if it can't be opened.

There's plenty of examples of doors with interior fitment that is anything from push-bar to door handle, which can be locked or unlocked from the outside.
You have these on the inside:
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/emergency-b ... push-pads/
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/panic-bars- ... -or-bolts/
And these on the outside:
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/external-access-devices/
Any door leading to the outside is potentially a fire exit, including the normal entrance and this is the case. The building does have more fire exist, however, and due distances, we should consider the normal entrance as a fire exist that can be used in a case of emergency.

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by bernicarey » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:36 am

joaorosa80 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 am

I am describing an office door. You have a normal latch, that allows you to leave the building locking the door from outside, without being able opening from inside unless you have a key (turning the knob, will not open the door.)
I know that regulation says "where necessary", but in this case, I believe is necessary.
I will get a "Break Glass Key Box"

Regards,
Well I'm totally confused now.

You first spoke about people locking the door behind them, but then you talk of it being the main entrance/exit....
joaorosa80 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:54 am

Any door leading to the outside is potentially a fire exit, including the normal entrance and this is the case. The building does have more fire exist, however, and due distances, we should consider the normal entrance as a fire exist that can be used in a case of emergency.
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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by stephen1974 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:25 pm

A door doesn't need to be an emergency exit just because it leads outside.
A main entrance/exit doesnt need to be considered an emergency exit
An emergency exit is one that you have designated with signs for people to follow in an emergency and therefore must comply with the minimum necessary standards to ensure it can be used in an emergency.

So, if you have designated this an emergency exit, and have put up signage leading to it, you need to ensure it suitable for that purpose. If you don't want it as an emergency exit, make sure it isn't marked up as one. (No signs on doors, no running man signs leading to it)

I understand your dilemma over the main entrance however. I've never received a straight answer from fire professionals on this one and just get the 'i dont have a flipping clue' response of "what does your risk assessment say?"

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by joaorosa80 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:35 am


Well I'm totally confused now.
You first spoke about people locking the door behind them, but then you talk of it being the main entrance/exit....
Main entrance/exit can be locked, I believe that I am not saying something new...reason why regs don't do the distinction.

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by joaorosa80 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:01 am

stephen1974 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:25 pm
A door doesn't need to be an emergency exit just because it leads outside.
A main entrance/exit doesnt need to be considered an emergency exit
An emergency exit is one that you have designated with signs for people to follow in an emergency and therefore must comply with the minimum necessary standards to ensure it can be used in an emergency.

So, if you have designated this an emergency exit, and have put up signage leading to it, you need to ensure it suitable for that purpose. If you don't want it as an emergency exit, make sure it isn't marked up as one. (No signs on doors, no running man signs leading to it)

I understand your dilemma over the main entrance however. I've never received a straight answer from fire professionals on this one and just get the 'i dont have a flipping clue' response of "what does your risk assessment say?"
Totally agree with the above Stephen, however, must be considered that was designated as an emergency door by the ones that I took the role of due to the distances to alternative exist.
At this stage, realistically no one will spend a penny on a new door (moving in one year time).
This is the problem with Risk Assessments, everyone does one to be left in the drawer year after year simply because actions are to radical to be taken.

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Re: Emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened...

Post by bernicarey » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:58 am

joaorosa80 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:35 am

Well I'm totally confused now.
You first spoke about people locking the door behind them, but then you talk of it being the main entrance/exit....
Main entrance/exit can be locked, I believe that I am not saying something new...reason why regs don't do the distinction.
I said I was out, but your post requires a further comment.

You're not explaining why anyone would lock the door behind them with a key while there were people inside!
If there's nobody inside when the door is locked, this whole thread is irrelevant.
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