Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

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Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by RickMarsh »

I'd appreciate some input on 'external or internal' door issue and whether it requires closer/seals etc.

The building is a 1960s purpose built block of flats (self-managed). Concrete/brick fronted throughout and no cladding.

The area in the red box contains the communal bin bay and meter cupboard on the ground floor with an open passage to our gardens/garages.

Each of the doors indicated are nominal fire doors.

Recent guidance has indicated the need for FD30 door on the meter cupboard.

I'm director nominated as fire warden and wondering how this door is better classed.

We cannot see the risk of fire from this area coming back into the building, or indeed the scale of fire that might occur in such a space, and that's based on a 60 year history without any fire incidents.

We conducted a recent smoke test and all the smoke vented naturally through the semi-open bin bay with no leakage into the passage area.

The building is four contiguous blocks of six flats.

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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by Messy »

Some questions:

Can I ask if you’ve had a fire risk assessment completed and if so, what were it’s findings in relation to the meter door? Or is your question part of research so you can carry out your own FRA?

Can I confirm that the area within the red square - the passageway and where the meter cupboard opens on to - are external to open air? Or is it enclosed?

Also I assume you have a stay put strategy?


Guidance is guidance - but with the recent changes to fire safety legislation, IMHP we seem to be going back to the bad old days of prescriptive legislation as so many are using guidance as ‘law’.

From what I can see via your plan, there are nominal fire doors on the meter room AND the back door from the lobby - so nominally 1 hour fire protection ? Plus, subject to your confirmation, the meter cupboard may open into fresh air
If I have all this correct, I really cant see much of an issue to be honest.

Anyone leaving the building can leave through the front, assuming they can see and are aware of a fire in the meter/bin area. I need to ask how well separated are the meters from the bin(s), by space or fire resisting material?

If you detail the findings of you assessment around this area along wit the smoke test and you may be fine. But bear in mind, a jobsworth Inspection Officer may well try to enforce the guidance and force an upgrade of the door.
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by RickMarsh »

Thanks for that, Messy.

'Can I ask if you’ve had a fire risk assessment completed and if so, what were it’s findings in relation to the meter door? Or is your question part of research so you can carry out your own FRA?': The research is mainly a question of stress testing our previous thinking. When we'll have our new measures in place, we'll commission a new independent FRA.

Last FRA said ... 'The electrical installations door should be replaced or upgraded to include intumescent strips and cold smoke seals with a 30 min fire rating. The doors should be maintained and remain shut at all times'.

'The area within the red square' is open to the air. Just been there to do a measurement and its flippin' freezing. The door to the passage way which is at the back of the hall is permanently locked and not allowed as an exit point in the event of a fire. Our best sense is to have residents exit by the front door and make for the designated assembly area which is a decent interval away from the building.

'Stay put': we could maintain a 'stay put' policy, given the building's compartmentation, but our evacuation plan directs residents to evacuate. The build is just two stories, two flats per floor, so there is unlikely to be a conflict between residents leaving the building and the arrival of emergency services. Exit from the building can be comfortably managed from the furthest point within 30 seconds and a single lung full of air.

Meter to bin: It's an open space of two metres from the meter door to the bin (High sided 2.5 metres high, metal). The FRA makes no reference of a risk of the rubbish igniting and with the semi-open nature of the area there is unlikely to be a build of heat that could lead to combustion.

'Inspection officer': there's an interesting question. We're a private block and have never been approached by our council for any kind of inspection and on a recent visit to our local fire station we could hardly get their attention.
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by Messy »

RickMarsh wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:47 pm Thanks for that, Messy.

'Can I ask if you’ve had a fire risk assessment completed and if so, what were it’s findings in relation to the meter door? Or is your question part of research so you can carry out your own FRA?': The research is mainly a question of stress testing our previous thinking. When we'll have our new measures in place, we'll commission a new independent FRA.

Last FRA said ... 'The electrical installations door should be replaced or upgraded to include intumescent strips and cold smoke seals with a 30 min fire rating. The doors should be maintained and remain shut at all times'.

'The area within the red square' is open to the air. Just been there to do a measurement and its flippin' freezing. The door to the passage way which is at the back of the hall is permanently locked and not allowed as an exit point in the event of a fire. Our best sense is to have residents exit by the front door and make for the designated assembly area which is a decent interval away from the building.

'Stay put': we could maintain a 'stay put' policy, given the building's compartmentation, but our evacuation plan directs residents to evacuate. The build is just two stories, two flats per floor, so there is unlikely to be a conflict between residents leaving the building and the arrival of emergency services. Exit from the building can be comfortably managed from the furthest point within 30 seconds and a single lung full of air.

Meter to bin: It's an open space of two metres from the meter door to the bin (High sided 2.5 metres high, metal). The FRA makes no reference of a risk of the rubbish igniting and with the semi-open nature of the area there is unlikely to be a build of heat that could lead to combustion.

'Inspection officer': there's an interesting question. We're a private block and have never been approached by our council for any kind of inspection and on a recent visit to our local fire station we could hardly get their attention.


Sounds like you have this all under control. I dont think I have ever completed a FRA for a RP who is so switched on to prepare in advance so well done clapclap

I might well have an alternative picture in my head than the reality, but I cannot understand why the previous FRA found that a FD30 door is needed on the bin room when the room is external, minimal risk of spread to the main building, and the door doesnt open onto an escape route. A well fitting nominal fire door with self cover would seem reasonable to my image of the risk.

I would be very interested how you get on when you have the FRA reviewed so please do come back if you can. Good luck
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by witsd »

RickMarsh wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:47 pm'Stay put': we could maintain a 'stay put' policy, given the building's compartmentation, but our evacuation plan directs residents to evacuate. The build is just two stories, two flats per floor, so there is unlikely to be a conflict between residents leaving the building and the arrival of emergency services. Exit from the building can be comfortably managed from the furthest point within 30 seconds and a single lung full of air.
This part caught my attention - how do you trigger that full evacuation? If Ms Smith in flat 1 burns her toast at 3am, do the alarms in all the flats sound?

Is it any different if an alarm in a common area is triggered?
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by RickMarsh »



Sounds like you have this all under control. I dont think I have ever completed a FRA for a RP who is so switched on to prepare in advance so well done clapclap

I might well have an alternative picture in my head than the reality, but I cannot understand why the previous FRA found that a FD30 door is needed on the bin room when the room is external, minimal risk of spread to the main building, and the door doesnt open onto an escape route. A well fitting nominal fire door with self cover would seem reasonable to my image of the risk.

I would be very interested how you get on when you have the FRA reviewed so please do come back if you can. Good luck
To be frank, it was written as if the building was made of balsa wood.

It has been a long process so I have put in a lot of work to educate myself, especially to be able to refute some of the more alarmist suggestions.

I'd be glad to come back to. Thank you for your advice thus far!
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by RickMarsh »


This part caught my attention - how do you trigger that full evacuation? If Ms Smith in flat 1 burns her toast at 3am, do the alarms in all the flats sound?

Is it any different if an alarm in a common area is triggered?
We don't have an integrated fire system, so we are reliant on smoke alarms on each floor, which, if a toaster fire went nasty and smoke got into the stairwells, would be set off causing a general alert for that block.

Advice is to leave directly if residents hear an alarm.

Only the block affected would be evacuated. If it were a big crisis, such as a gas leak, or one of the regular Chinook flights crash landing on the roof, such as would require full evacuation, our grab bags have a number of gas blasters, so those would be sounded in the other parts of the building to raise a general alert.

This process is all set out in our induction manual which is distributed to all residents.
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by witsd »

RickMarsh wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 4:44 amWe don't have an integrated fire system, so we are reliant on smoke alarms on each floor, which, if a toaster fire went nasty and smoke got into the stairwells, would be set off causing a general alert for that block.

Advice is to leave directly if residents hear an alarm.

Only the block affected would be evacuated. If it were a big crisis, such as a gas leak, or one of the regular Chinook flights crash landing on the roof, such as would require full evacuation, our grab bags have a number of gas blasters, so those would be sounded in the other parts of the building to raise a general alert.

This process is all set out in our induction manual which is distributed to all residents.
If the stairwell alarms aren't loud enough to be heard by a resident who is in their bedroom with headphones on, then I think stating that it's a simultaneous evacuation is slightly shaky ground... Are there staff on site 24 hours?

Sorry, I don't want to give you additional problems, but I've got that fatal fire that happened last year where there was no effective system to trigger the simultaneous evacuation in the back of my mind.
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by RickMarsh »


If the stairwell alarms aren't loud enough to be heard by a resident who is in their bedroom with headphones on, then I think stating that it's a simultaneous evacuation is slightly shaky ground... Are there staff on site 24 hours?

Sorry, I don't want to give you additional problems, but I've got that fatal fire that happened last year where there was no effective system to trigger the simultaneous evacuation in the back of my mind.

witsd, all feedback is appreciated. That's why I'm here.

We are an entirely private self-managing residential block without staff or caretaker.

Have you a link for the fire you mention. I'd appreciate being able to study that.

Thank you.
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by witsd »

RickMarsh wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 5:55 pm

If the stairwell alarms aren't loud enough to be heard by a resident who is in their bedroom with headphones on, then I think stating that it's a simultaneous evacuation is slightly shaky ground... Are there staff on site 24 hours?

Sorry, I don't want to give you additional problems, but I've got that fatal fire that happened last year where there was no effective system to trigger the simultaneous evacuation in the back of my mind.

witsd, all feedback is appreciated. That's why I'm here.

We are an entirely private self-managing residential block without staff or caretaker.

Have you a link for the fire you mention. I'd appreciate being able to study that.

Thank you.
I'm thinking of the Dagenham fire (which actually wasn't fatal - my poor memory there).

I'm struggling to find the relevant report that talked about the strategy and mentions the lack of adequate alarms to trigger it. I'll keep poking about and see if it turns up.
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by witsd »

Ah, that's why I can't find it - it wasn't a news report, it was word-of-mouth from a contact of Messy's (see the link below).

Looks like the criminal investigation didn't get too far, perhaps because they were relatively lucky and no-one died?

viewtopic.php?p=372627#p372627
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Fire door for semi-external meter cupboard

Post by Messy »

I was wondering which fire you were referring to 😂😂

Its a fair point that a simultaneous strategy will need a method of raising the alarm. A fire detection system will come with a whole heap of 'burdens' that don't apply in stay put including testing - needs someone to visit regularly- possibly weekly and false alarms ( especially if you have break glass points)


I am 75% sure the Dagenham job will go to court, so I will tread carefully. A learning point for me was the TV news images showed people escaping down scaffolding onto fenced off site compounds, with locked gates

The escapees were then trapped behind locked gates in a panic. It wasn't a recognised means of escape of course, but maybe should have been considered

Would I have considered it during a FRA? Yes for the workers, but probably not for residents 😳
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