Permit to Work System - HELP!!

[JM_London]

Good morning

I have recently started a new role and have taken on the huge task of reviewing and overhauling the whole "permit to work system" in my new employment as currently it is woeful!

So question - I have designed all the relevant permits required but have been asked about out of hours? I stressed the absolute need for the issuer to be the only one to cancel the permit, but was asked that if a permit was issued to a workerwho was working on site out of hours - does the permit issuer need to be on site as well.

At the moment, our helpdesk draw up the permit, hand it to security that evening and then the worker arrives out of hours, security issue them with passes and keys and get them to sign the permit. Worker goes on his merry way and completes his task and then signs off permit at end. the permit is then brought back from security the next working day and signed off by helpdesk.

How can I ensure that
1) The control measures are in place
2) Get around the point of the issuer being the one to sign the permit back in the next working day
3) Not being on site when their contractor is carrying out the works.

I really need fast answers on this as I have to present my findings to the head of FM tomorrow, so ANY help is appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!!

JM

[YoungNick]

Good morning

I have recently started a new role and have taken on the huge task of reviewing and overhauling the whole "permit to work system" in my new employment as currently it is woeful!

So question - I have designed all the relevant permits required but have been asked about out of hours? I stressed the absolute need for the issuer to be the only one to cancel the permit, but was asked that if a permit was issued to a workerwho was working on site out of hours - does the permit issuer need to be on site as well.

At the moment, our helpdesk draw up the permit, hand it to security that evening and then the worker arrives out of hours, security issue them with passes and keys and get them to sign the permit. Worker goes on his merry way and completes his task and then signs off permit at end. the permit is then brought back from security the next working day and signed off by helpdesk.

How can I ensure that
1) The control measures are in place
2) Get around the point of the issuer being the one to sign the permit back in the next working day
3) Not being on site when their contractor is carrying out the works.

I really need fast answers on this as I have to present my findings to the head of FM tomorrow, so ANY help is appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!!

JM

Hi JM

A little concerned regarding how your Permit is actually issued, it sounds as thou it is passed through a lot of hands before the workers get to sign it and follow it?

Does the permit issuer (also concerned who the issuer is off this permit, helpdesk or security - have both parties had relevant training in regards to this?) assess the work before issuing this? Does he/ she have face to face contact with the recipient of the permit making sure the worker fully understands the permit?

Also, when the permit is signed off, who is assessing the work has been carried out in accordance to the permit and additional hazards are not present after the job has been done? I would say YES the permit issuer should ALWAYS be on site when work is been done under the permit.

The permit is literally the LAST resort in which you can ascertain all controls are in place for the workers to safely carry out their job without harm. They can be the difference between a safe job and catastrophic failure IMHO

This one may help give you some basics regarding PTW systems http://www.hseni.gov.uk/hsg250_guidance ... ystems.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JM_London]

Hi Njl1992

I'm also concerned, hence the overhaul!

The issuer isn't on site due to it being out of hours, so doesn't meet with the recipient or review their work but does review the RAM's prior to them coming on site. This is why they get help-desk to issue the permit and security to issue access cards and keys.

I see a very large hole here and am trying to come up with the best safe and legal way of resolving this.

I'm not happy with helpdesk are issuing permits as they aren't the ones that review the RAM's , that is down to the FM Manager and I feel that he should be issuing them as he does "in-hours"?

In my old company we always had a team member on site to "babysit" the contractors and they also read the rams prior so they understood what the task was and the risks associated with it.

I don't think even security access the works that have been carried out as well, so there is a big risk there as well.

Thanks

[YoungNick]

JM

So who is physically writing the permit and issuing it? Could you please clarify just to help us a little bit? Is it the FM manager who is the authorised person for this?

The AP should issue permits to the competent persons(the worker), they should also personally inspect the site to ensure that the conditions and proposed precautions are adequate and that it is safe for the work to proceed, as well as this they should be accompany the worker to the site to
ensure that the plant/equipment is correctly identified and that the worker understands the permit. From this the AP should cancel the permit on satisfactory completion of the work.

I think your first point of contact with this situation is going through a plan of action in regard to the full PTW system and how it will be tackled and achieved. Is they anybody else within the company who are familiar and competent with a PTW system to assist you in this?

[JM_London]

Sorry I wasn't clear, its been a very long day already!!

In hours - the FM Manager inspected the location, writes and issues the permits - liaises direct with the contractor and then checks the area afterwards. I have no issues in this as all covered

Out of hours - The FM Manager reads the RAMs and books the work in with our helpdesk. They write the permit and book this in with the out of hours security team. the permit is then passed from the helpdesk to security. Security read the permit and ask the contractor to sign it and issue pass/ keys. When work is complete the contractor goes back to security who get the contractor to sign the permit back in. The permit is then given back to helpdesk on the next working day (so permit could in theory be raised on a Friday for works on a Saturday but permit not closed until the Monday!)

There isn't anyone else to help as they thought they were doing a good job - my role is newly created to come in and do gap analysis on sections like this.
thanks

[David68]

Just a quick one here, bearing in mind that a PTW is used for High Risk activities.

The cancellation section of a permit to work is signed by the authorising manager before any other work is undertaken in the work area. What control is in place to ensure that other workers are not put at risk by entering a work area that has not been signed off as fit for operation.

What would be the company's defence if the FM issues a PTW on Friday, the work was undertaken on the Saturday, emergency works required on a Sunday and there is an accident caused by a failure of the PTW worker to make safe the area and there is a serious injury that required enforcing authority action.

Personally, either the work waits until the appropriate controls are in place, or the FM comes in to issue, oversee against the RAMS, and then cancel the PTW.

Dave

[JM_London]

thanks Dave
I totally agree with you as there are no SSOW implemented for any issues plus it is unfair on security, etc.

I am meeting with the head of FM today to stop this practice and either have the work carried out in hours (under supervision of the permit issuer) or arrange for issuer to be in to oversee on out of hours.

Thanks

JM

[Zman]

Is a PTW needed? If it's routine maintenance or work done OOH to avoid downtime but otherwise not high risk, a robust risk assessment and method statement may suffice.

[Fletcher]

What was the outcome of your meeting with FM?

Similar to Zman I would ask "exactly why do you need to issue a PTW and what is it going to achieve?"

[JM_London]

The outcome was to audit all current RAM's as the SSOW should be there first and foremost and if the safety measures are all in place then permits should not be required.
Thanks