Hi all,
Quick question - old pub (built 1600's). Timber floors throughout. L1 alarm system was installed in 2010 as compensation for uncertainty on building materials / levels of fire resistance. Separate sleeping accommodation above pub (private flats with own independent entry / exit.
Question is, would you expect the basement / beer cellar ceiling to be compartmented??
They have a fire door on ground floor to the cellar, but when you get down in the cellar, the ceiling is riddled with holes to allow pipes and cables to travel up...
There is no formal fire strategy which i guess is normal for this type / age of premises.
Reason for query is that previous FRA's have always said that the L1 alarm system is adequate to compensate for any defects to compartmentation...new FRA this year states that the cellar must be separated from ground with 60-min fire resistant material. The alarm is interlinked to sounders in the flats above too.
Attached some pics to show you what i am waffling on about...any guidance from people always appreciated!
Compartmentation query
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- Paul1979
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- Messy
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Re: Compartmentation query
Oh yes, I recognise those photos from a fair few pubs I have had the displeasure to have dealings with!
Thankfully the sleeping accommodation has its own access/exit, so that is a plus, but there are many alarm bells ringing in my head here.
Its worth considering why basement fires are so problematic: In any windowless space, especially sub surface, there is no opportunity for a developing fire to break out of windows, thereby releasing hot gases, flame and smoke and reducing the temperature and air pressure in that space. The only way a fire can spread is up staircases or through the floor. This in turn would lead to a more rapid fire spread than on other floors. So usually for most purpose groups, greater separation is required between the basement and ground floor - usually 1 hr.
Now look at the occupancy (post covid) of a pub. Maybe filled shoulder to shoulder with people, some may be disabled, others merely incapable of moving independently or at all! Then alcohol makes people argumentative. And of course, many have the "I have paid for this pint or meal, I will finish it first before I move". Plus people are sleeping upstairs in a 400 year old building in a dubious state of repair. So pubs are relatively high risk premises, which is why local authorities tightly restrict and monitor them by way of a licence
This cellar ceiling is of course useless in terms of providing virtually any separation. Upgrading the fire detection to L1 (which is detection in every room and most voids) will have course make a difference, but without strict management of fire safety risks, I question whether the extra detection is sufficient.
For example,
I would probably want assurances that the electrical appears and installation was in good condition - including properly contained. Its clear from your photos that the cabling looks more like an explosion in a spaghetti factory than well ordered cable management. Plastic cable ties, hanging cables and hardly any fixing to walls or trays makes this look like a proper amateur job.
I would want zero tolerance of storage of comestible in the basement. The photos show discarded or stored furniture and cardboard boxes - just the right tinder to convert an overheated cable into a fully involved compartment fire!
and I would want an attempt better separation where services pass through the ceiling (as opposed to no effort now). Envirograf are a company I have used before. They are very helpful as is there website. This page shows 101 different ways to seal cables and pipes. If the services are rationalised and grouped together, there may be a needs for fewer holes, albeit larger ones. But at least the penetrations would be more manageable
To sum up
I would definitely ask to see any rationale as to why an upgrade to L1 was seen as sufficient. Was it supported by a reasonable argument/evidence, maybe fire safety engineered evidence, or was it the opinion of a risk assessor who wants to keep his contract with the brewery so provides the cheapest option????
If you don't get a good answer, or the answer you get doesn't make you feel all fluffy and warm inside, I would go with the more recent FRA which is: Maintain the L1 detection, fix the ceiling holes to improve separation and manage the fire loading (storage) in the cellar
Good luck and please come back and let us know how you got on
Thankfully the sleeping accommodation has its own access/exit, so that is a plus, but there are many alarm bells ringing in my head here.
Its worth considering why basement fires are so problematic: In any windowless space, especially sub surface, there is no opportunity for a developing fire to break out of windows, thereby releasing hot gases, flame and smoke and reducing the temperature and air pressure in that space. The only way a fire can spread is up staircases or through the floor. This in turn would lead to a more rapid fire spread than on other floors. So usually for most purpose groups, greater separation is required between the basement and ground floor - usually 1 hr.
Now look at the occupancy (post covid) of a pub. Maybe filled shoulder to shoulder with people, some may be disabled, others merely incapable of moving independently or at all! Then alcohol makes people argumentative. And of course, many have the "I have paid for this pint or meal, I will finish it first before I move". Plus people are sleeping upstairs in a 400 year old building in a dubious state of repair. So pubs are relatively high risk premises, which is why local authorities tightly restrict and monitor them by way of a licence
This cellar ceiling is of course useless in terms of providing virtually any separation. Upgrading the fire detection to L1 (which is detection in every room and most voids) will have course make a difference, but without strict management of fire safety risks, I question whether the extra detection is sufficient.
For example,
I would probably want assurances that the electrical appears and installation was in good condition - including properly contained. Its clear from your photos that the cabling looks more like an explosion in a spaghetti factory than well ordered cable management. Plastic cable ties, hanging cables and hardly any fixing to walls or trays makes this look like a proper amateur job.
I would want zero tolerance of storage of comestible in the basement. The photos show discarded or stored furniture and cardboard boxes - just the right tinder to convert an overheated cable into a fully involved compartment fire!
and I would want an attempt better separation where services pass through the ceiling (as opposed to no effort now). Envirograf are a company I have used before. They are very helpful as is there website. This page shows 101 different ways to seal cables and pipes. If the services are rationalised and grouped together, there may be a needs for fewer holes, albeit larger ones. But at least the penetrations would be more manageable
To sum up
I would definitely ask to see any rationale as to why an upgrade to L1 was seen as sufficient. Was it supported by a reasonable argument/evidence, maybe fire safety engineered evidence, or was it the opinion of a risk assessor who wants to keep his contract with the brewery so provides the cheapest option????
If you don't get a good answer, or the answer you get doesn't make you feel all fluffy and warm inside, I would go with the more recent FRA which is: Maintain the L1 detection, fix the ceiling holes to improve separation and manage the fire loading (storage) in the cellar
Good luck and please come back and let us know how you got on
- Paul1979
- Member
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:19 pm
- 7
- Industry Sector: Property Management including H&S
- Occupation: Property Manager including reviewing of H&S assessments and implementing remedial actions...or trying to justify why they are over the top and an alternative solution can be found!!
- Location: London
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 44 times
Re: Compartmentation query
Hi Messy, just to let you know, the ceiling in the cellar is being replaced with 60min fire rated plasterboard. The landlord is also speaking to Enviograf about suitable systems to allow pipes and cables to run through - they have been really helpful, so thank you for the tip here!
Thanks as always for your thoughts.
Thanks as always for your thoughts.
"If life were predictable it would cease to be life and be without flavor."