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Evacuator Fire Alarm

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Paul1979
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Paul1979 »

Messy/witsd - as always, thank you both so much for your input. We will be advising the client to ask for a review of the FRA and the suitability of the method of raising alarm.
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by stephen1974 »

I would have to disagree here.

I have seen many buildings with these in, typically some sort of (older) small warehouse or manufacturing units.

Now, a lot of these places still use manual bells (the type you turn by hand) or worse (imo) air horns (which always seem to go missing) and these are often deemed perfectly acceptable means of manually raising the alarm. I've even seen places that just have whistles. To me, having seen these systems being used, they do a much better job than any other manual system (that isnt a hard wired alarm).

The issue for me has always been one of fire detection when it comes to manual alarms and in a manufacturing unit I would question any FRA that doesnt address that as these tend to be minimally staffed and staff are very much focused on their task and oblivious to all else. Areas get unattended for long periods and there tends to be a lot of sources of ignition and fuel present. The argument from the operators always tends to be, its one (or two) large rooms and employees can see all areas - that tends not to be the case, along with afforementioned issues, but that will be their position.

But just purely as a manual alarm system, these units are good. They are loud, visible, fixed in known locations. They can be linked or stand alone. Battery operated ones can be an issue if not checked. Test monthly (linked ones need to be tested weekly) and I dont see a problem here - purely as a manual warning system.
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by witsd »

Paul1979 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 pmYou are correct - there is no AFD. But working processes naturally produce some dust and atmospheres which would create numerous false alarms - plus all areas are always occupied by staff so we thought the good old 'M' system (compliant with BS5839-1) would be better??? Do you think this justifies having AFD?
Heat detection?
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Paul1979 »

witsd wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm Heat detection?
Yes, I guess a possible - but both units are open planned in design. Even small office / staff room / reception areas are glazed to allow high levels of vision throughout...

But, I am no expert to respect your opinions 100% if you think Heat Detection would bring much benefit?
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by witsd »

Without seeing the building it's hard to be sure of anything!

I am surprised that the insurers haven't demanded it - even if the 'trained' staff are able to see all areas of the building during their shifts, who monitors it overnight? Not really a risk to life thing, but could be a lot more costly!
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Paul1979 »

witsd wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:18 pm I am surprised that the insurers haven't demanded it - even if the 'trained' staff are able to see all areas of the building during their shifts, who monitors it overnight? Not really a risk to life thing, but could be a lot more costly!
Yes, fully agree - unbelievably, I don't think Insurers have visited site for quite some years. The insurance side of things is another issue also in terms of external storage of waste / combustibles...policy says 10m distance from skip to building...yes, you guessed it, there is nowhere near 10m distance! :shock:
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by stephen1974 »

Sounds very much like the places i've seen with these sorts of units in place.

You mentioned isolated locations (guy with headphones) but then you say open plan. Are there places where people will either not see or not hear these devices being used under normal working conditions (ie when employees are carrying out their jobs). If not, i'm not seeing a problem myself - but would love to be corrected as I would love an argument to take to these guys as to why they should get a proper system in place. Problem is, its like rock paper scissors - Must beats cost, cost beats recommended.

I assume employees can cook food somewhere. Is this area always visible? Do people leave things cooking unattended? I once had a place where reception staff would put their food in the microwave to cook before their lunch break so it would be ready for them and they wouldnt waste their break cooking. Whilst it was cooking they went back to reception. Imo, somewhere like this needs some sort of ADF.
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Paul1979 »

stephen1974 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:24 pm
You mentioned isolated locations (guy with headphones) but then you say open plan.
Apologies, my comments misleading - the areas where the guys are working with headphones on are open plan...sorry.

But good point about the cooking - they do have a staff break-out area with microwaves, kettles, etc. (no toasters though) which I think would benefit from AFD. .salut Thank you - great spot that one!!

I really feel uncomfortable with the current system - not only because it is something I am not used to seeing (but I know I should not let that be ultimate factor) but general management (lack of) housekeeping issues, etc. etc. makes me think that the Evacuator system is just a cheaper option to try and tick a box...but as you can read from the chain of comments on this topic, it is not black and white .scratch
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by stephen1974 »

It is largely that, ticking a box at the lowest possible cost and it is really hard to get away from that.

What makes you uncomfortable about it? its ability to trigger an effective evacuation? or the fire detection side? If its the later, I think you will have a tough time of it if AFD hasn't been bought up in the risk assessment. The best you might be able to hope for is improving housekeeping to reduce the risk of fire, but from experience - head and brickwall springs to mind.

If its the former. Run some drills when people are working in the nosiest and/or most remote places. If you are brave, get a big sign saying " I'M A FIRE, PRESS THE ALARM " and dance around with it, see how long it takes them to spot you (Also, take a video and post it on youtube, we'll wanna see it )

Other than that, note your concerns in an email, with reasonings, suggestions for solutions, and costings. Send it up the chain. Thats your due diligence and you can't do more than that. (with a copy to your getoutofjailfreecard@gmail.com account)
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Paul1979 »

My most biggest fears are 1) being unfamiliar with the Evacuator alarm system and fact it isn't BS recognised; 2) the fact that a fire could originate in one part of the buildings and the system fail to warn others in a part of the building where the products of the fire are not possible to see/smell; 3) the fear of the cables failing due to heat; 4) people (especially those wearing head phones) not hearing the alarm or seeing the visual alarms; 5) the limitation of the Evacuator alarm system not being able to include AFD; 6) having no CIE to continually monitor for faults; 7) not convinced client will ever test the alarm!

You are right though; its the FRA and lack of mention of BS5839-1 being a suitable benchmark that's causing the client to dig his heals in...I can only give them my advice to the best of my knowledge / competency I guess.
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by Messy »

stephen1974 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:05 am I would have to disagree here.

I have seen many buildings with these in, typically some sort of (older) small warehouse or manufacturing units.

Now, a lot of these places still use manual bells (the type you turn by hand) or worse (imo) air horns (which always seem to go missing) and these are often deemed perfectly acceptable means of manually raising the alarm. I've even seen places that just have whistles. To me, having seen these systems being used, they do a much better job than any other manual system (that isnt a hard wired alarm).

The issue for me has always been one of fire detection when it comes to manual alarms and in a manufacturing unit I would question any FRA that doesnt address that as these tend to be minimally staffed and staff are very much focused on their task and oblivious to all else. Areas get unattended for long periods and there tends to be a lot of sources of ignition and fuel present. The argument from the operators always tends to be, its one (or two) large rooms and employees can see all areas - that tends not to be the case, along with afforementioned issues, but that will be their position.

But just purely as a manual alarm system, these units are good. They are loud, visible, fixed in known locations. They can be linked or stand alone. Battery operated ones can be an issue if not checked. Test monthly (linked ones need to be tested weekly) and I dont see a problem here - purely as a manual warning system.

Of course you are correct, low risk, open plan small premises can often use rotary gongs, whistles and the like. They are reliable and will work every time, as does the simple shout of FIRE.

But to have a risk which requires a device with relies on a single power supply from an unmonitored source is not something I would advise in a permanent setting, and even the suppliers of the device say its for temporary locations.

If you need more than bells and whistles, it must be a system installed to a recognised standard,
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Re: Evacuator Fire Alarm

Post by stephen1974 »

I appreciate what you are saying about the power supply but these systems have a built in warning system for low battery levels or battery failure just as stand alone smoke detectors do.
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