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Fire Extinguishers in schools

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Paul1979
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Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by Paul1979 »

We manage a fairly small school (200 pupils) which is all on ground floor level. Mainstream school for children between ages of 4 and 11 years.

Each classroom has its own independent escape exit directly to fresh air.

Questions are being thrown around between Fire Risk Assessor and Fire Extinguisher Engineers - we're stuck in middle and cannot decide who is telling us the right solution...question is...

Does each classroom exit need to have an extinguisher(s) adjacent to each exit door?

School policy is to immediately evacuate and do not tackle fires (unless exit blocked) but only senior managers and school caretaker have training on the use of extinguishers.

There is currently a corridor (approximately 25m in length) with entrance / exits at each end too. At present, there is only extinguishers found adjacent to these exits at opposing ends of the building.

FRA shows due to a) evacuation policy to immediately evacuate; b) school environment where tackling fires is discouraged; c) travel distance to a fire extinguisher is within 30m (Class A) and 25m (Class B) then the current arrangement is suitable.

Extinguisher engineer (using BS5306-8 guidance) states that extinguishers should be by every dedicated fire exit in the building...

You can probably guess why this is being hotly debated by the school - there are currently 5 extinguishers (2 x Class A plus 3 x Class B including 1 in corridor next to electrical intake & distribution equipment). The engineer is stating there should be quite a few more due to his workings of extinguishers next to each exit.

Our genuine feel (ignoring costs) is that the FRA is correct as he/she has explained reasoning why rather than just thrown a BS at us...? But is there any huge safety improvements you can think of that will raise benefits of having extinguishers next to each classroom exit?

As always, any help / guidance much appreciated. .salut

Stay safe...
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by Messy »

Ok, I must declare an interest here and own up to being a full time fire safety advisor whose bread and butter is completing FRAs. I have also carried out work at Schools including a huge redevelopment of a boarding School in southern England; I will try to be neutral, but some bias may creep in!

Forget the advice and think of the motivation behind each of these professional’s advice.

FAQs

Q
What law is being applied here?

A
The assessor will be working to provide a FRA (in England or Wales) to meet the requirements of Fire Safety Order. Other parts of the UK devolved administration have similar requirements

The fire extinguisher salesperson is responding to your request and are offering safety assistance which is covered in the Fire Safety Order. However, their use of the British standard to support their view is only valid if they explain that the BS is guidance/best practice, is not compulsory and numbers of FFE should be led by the FRA and fire safety strategy

Q
What is the situation in terms of responsibilities for their advice and the law?

A
Both have to give the best possible advice, as in a Court of Law, they may be treated as the Responsible Person and enforcement action taken again them up to imprisonment

The School, as the employer, are almost certainly the Responsible Person and will fall foul of the law if they accept poor advice or fail to research the competency of the advice giver

Q
Are British Standards law?

A
British standards are NOT law, but provide best practice for ‘standard’ buildings. Where the building is not standard, you are allowed to move away from that guidance if it can be justified.

An example is BS5839-1. It states that when designing a fire alarm system, every door from a building should have a manual fire alarm call point fitted adjacent to it, whether its a fire exit or not. The rationale is that even if its not a designated fire exit, a person may escape from a loading bay or other area, and must have an opportunity to sound the alarm. Makes sense doesn't it?

But what about a pub? Revellers slightly worse for wear may bash the break glass on their way out for fun and cause a risk, stampede or nuisance. So many pubs where the door can be seen from the bar, will site the manual call point behind the bar and under the control of the staff

So the usual British standard advice has been varied

Its the same with this extinguisher issue at the School. The risk assessor has provided a full justification from varying away from extinguishers next to every classroom door and you are happy with that advice

The extinguisher salesperson has just mentioned the British standard, as if you are obliged to swallow it whole - that is not the case. Why would their advice be different I wonder………


Q
How is each professional paid?

A
The fire risk assessor will have agreed a price with the School. The terms vary from one assessor to the next, but generally the price will be known in advance.

The extinguisher salesperson will almost certainly be on commission for each unit sold and for any maintenance contract agreed. With SOME extinguisher salespeople, that can cloud their judgement as £££££ symbols fill their eyes and they think about Christmas and little Johnny’s bicycle and X Box he has asked Santa for

Rant

I saw the result of a extinguisher sales person after he visited a major London Hospital prior to a fire service strike many years ago. The thief - because that is what he was - sold them dry powder extinguishers for their operating site as it was such a high risk. Every theatre and corridors in between was like a fire extinguisher warehouse

Letting off a dry powder extinguisher (intentionally or otherwise) in an operating theatre with a patient undergoing surgery is a very serious mistake and ultimately could kill. I went ballistic and helped remove all DP units and replace the with a more suitable media


Summary

Make your own mind up and go with your gut feeling.

Some people might say they would get their extinguishers elsewhere and get rid of this greedy fool - but of course, I couldn't really comment
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by Paul1979 »

Hi Messy, that's great - your comments marry up with ours - we just wanted to make sure we wasn't falling foul if we went for the lower number of extinguishers option. Teachers have all said they have no intention of using the FEA's in the event of a fire anyway - they are all trained to evacuate the children immediately - one did use the good old 'get out, stay out & call the fireman out' - albeit, appreciate the term 'fireman' is no longer correct before I get crucified...

Thanks as always for your detailed response - really appreciated.
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by witsd »

Absolute twaddle. Go with your FRA and never, ever let salespersons try to dictate a fire strategy unless you've specifically asked them to do this (and if you do, make it clear that you won't also be buying from them due to the obvious conflict of interests).

Slightly more blunt approach than Messy, but there you go!
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by stephen1974 »

Love it. Messy sums it up in some 500 words, witsd goes with "Absolute Twaddle" :)

I think most of have sales person stories when it comes to this sort of thing. I've had risk assessors quoting for jobs to 'get up on the roof to take paint samples for testing'.

Fire extnguishers by every exit is an interesting one. As people say, its in the BS standard, but what real use are they there? If your at the exit, get out, you dont want people grabbing an extinguisher then going against the flow of an evacuation to try to get to a fire thats probably now to big for an extinguishers to deal with any way.
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by Messy »

The concept of placing extinguishers in locations towards escape final exits were people dont have to go further into the building is a sound one. But by every exit is plain daft for most risks.

I also disagree with the sales talk that you must have an extinguisher ID sign above each sign. Ok, its good practice, but in heritage building and residential homes (where there's a need to promote a domestic feeling to the building), who wants a hideous sign looking ugly?

OK if the extinguisher is hidden or obstructed, but not every time
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Re: Fire Extinguishers in schools

Post by witsd »

I find signage serves a more useful purpose of highlighting where the extinguisher is supposed to be, so that it can be replaced correctly after being used to prop open a fire door.
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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