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Travel distance to manual call point

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Paul1979
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Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Paul1979 » Wed May 08, 2019 1:25 pm

Silly question time, I'm sorry...

We have a large(ish) room (25m x 12m) which is used for places of assembly (can be up to 150 people at times). The room adjoins other rooms which then have fire / emergency exit doors.

Do we need to have call points adjacent to the doors which leave the big room, or can we have just call points next to the final exits??

I’ve looked up on Google and we’re confused as it says 45m distance is acceptable for a ‘defined’ route, but only 30m for an ‘undefined’ route….but we don’t understand what the difference is!!

There doesn't appear to be a definition in the guides for 'defined' and 'undefined' escape routes - so if anyone has something that can help us that would be brilliant.

Any help / advice would be much appreciated!

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Messy » Wed May 08, 2019 2:08 pm

The default travel distance to MCPs has been 45m for many years, reduced to 25m for areas of high fire risk (rapid development) or where a disability may slow down raising the alarm ( this is the older 2002 version of BS 5839)

Unforetunately I haven't got the latest British standard at home so can't look up the un/defined part.

Is there a commissioning certificate for the alarm when it was installed? If there is and there hasn't been a significant increased risk since then and the premises is low risk (e.g. not an elderly care home) , I wouldn't worry too much

I will look further when I get back to the office

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Paul1979 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 pm

Hi Messy, no there's no commissioning certificate. It was done by a local electrician who says that he cannot commission systems...

But, we are well below the 45m distance - it was mention of the 30m distance which threw everyone into panic, plus we cannot find (even looking at the BS5839 Part 1 2017) what the definitions of un/defined are which doesn't help...??

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Essex » Thu May 09, 2019 8:54 am

What grade of fire alarm do you have installed and what does your FRA state?
Education is the key. A manager should always stand by their team. They employed them.

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Essex » Thu May 09, 2019 8:58 am

Paul1979 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 pm
Hi Messy, no there's no commissioning certificate. It was done by a local electrician who says that he cannot commission systems...

But, we are well below the 45m distance - it was mention of the 30m distance which threw everyone into panic, plus we cannot find (even looking at the BS5839 Part 1 2017) what the definitions of un/defined are which doesn't help...??
I would be more concerned about employing contractors not competent in fire alarms personally mate.
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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by witsd » Thu May 09, 2019 11:38 am

'Where necessary…'

Do an FRA and consider the risk level in the room, how long (longer) it would take to raise the alarm and whether there is any reasonable increase to the risk to life due to this.

If not (and I'd seriously doubt it), note it, explain your reasoning and move on.
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by Paul1979 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:24 pm

Thank you all for your help - very much appreciated as always.

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by hammer1 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:12 pm

Paul1979 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:25 pm
Silly question time, I'm sorry...

We have a large(ish) room (25m x 12m) which is used for places of assembly (can be up to 150 people at times). The room adjoins other rooms which then have fire / emergency exit doors.

Do we need to have call points adjacent to the doors which leave the big room, or can we have just call points next to the final exits??

I’ve looked up on Google and we’re confused as it says 45m distance is acceptable for a ‘defined’ route, but only 30m for an ‘undefined’ route….but we don’t understand what the difference is!!

There doesn't appear to be a definition in the guides for 'defined' and 'undefined' escape routes - so if anyone has something that can help us that would be brilliant.

Any help / advice would be much appreciated!
As mentioned assess the risk, from your description MCPs at final exits should be suffice if already installed, don't forget depending on layout and use, shouting 'FIRE' could be suffice....reference your FRA to see.

What you might want to look at is occupancy limits and ensure the appropriate calculations have been made.

I have something attached that would help guide you on this....however it should be captured in the FRA
OCCUPANCY_CALCULATIONS.pdf
occupancy calcs
(159.03 KiB) Downloaded 23 times
OCCUPANCY_CALCULATIONS.pdf
occupancy calcs
(159.03 KiB) Downloaded 23 times
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}

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Re: Travel distance to manual call point

Post by hammer1 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Paul1979 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 pm
Hi Messy, no there's no commissioning certificate. It was done by a local electrician who says that he cannot commission systems...

But, we are well below the 45m distance - it was mention of the 30m distance which threw everyone into panic, plus we cannot find (even looking at the BS5839 Part 1 2017) what the definitions of un/defined are which doesn't help...??
I would strongly recommend you use 3rd party accredited contractors in future, FIA/BAFE websites should assist. If for nothing else to ensure your insurance will be paid out if in event of fire.
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}

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