Giving up on a company

EagleBeagle · Post by **EagleBeagle** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:04 pm

Is there ever a time to "give up" on seeking meaningful improvements within a company when health and safety is effectively ignored but where you're not in a position to hand in your resignation nor whistleblow?

As an example of severity, the scenario would involve:

Zero management commitment, not even approving, signing or wanted agreeing to display a Safety Policy.
No wearing of PPE by management or staff when carrying out obviously hazardous work.
Refusal of line managers to respond, let alone cooperate, with contact from the H&S Officer.
No implementation of risk assessments on the ground by line managers or their staff.
No disciplinary procedures and an environment where operatives knowingly laugh off interventions by H&S.
No assessment of sub-contractors despite repeated advice that this needs to be done and no information on sub-contractors.
Questionable engagement with RIDDOR reporting when accidents occur.

Andyblue · Post by **Andyblue** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made.
For my 2 Penneth, if you are the H&S role, it could be a case of a final burst of communication with the owners. Do you know why they ( owners/ top management)have no interest. I can understand that their example might well filter through to,others.
Do we assume this is a Uk operation?

EagleBeagle · Post by **EagleBeagle** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:02 pm

Andyblue wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am Sometimes hard decisions have to be made.
For my 2 Penneth, if you are the H&S role, it could be a case of a final burst of communication with the owners. Do you know why they ( owners/ top management)have no interest. I can understand that their example might well filter through to,others.
Do we assume this is a Uk operation?

Sad to say it is a UK operation.

I think there's an attitude of "its always worked this way", a reluctance to rock the boat with the staff that have been conditioned to "work this way", and from what I can see very little interest in hearing about health and safety issues.

If the proverbial excrement meets the fan, I've no doubt that it'll end in a disaster for all concerned. I think they've been lucky enough to keep below the radar for most the of time up to this point, but every day you're asking yourself how much longer can that happen?

Blackstone · Post by **Blackstone** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:34 am

There is only so long you can bang your head against the brick wall!

I would ensure that it can be seen that you have tried to make improvements and change in the event of an unfortunate incident.

Keep plugging away but I would also be looking for another role.

I had a similar thing at a company i had been with for 19 year. Improvements were made but it was a battle. I was H&S manager for the last 3 years of those 19 and eventually had enough. It took me 7 months to find another role but once id made my mind up, i knew i would leave at some point!

Good luck!

billinom8s · Post by **billinom8s** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:50 am

Yep, i would be backing up any proof that you've tried, emailing plenty of questions out asking to implement change or questioning why it's not being recognised. Create that paper trail, save EVERYTHING and cover your backside as you know that if it all goes sideways they will try to drop you in it.

Have to try and understand why they even have a H&S position if they aren't going to listen or use it.

Safety · Post by **Safety** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:59 pm

Agree with billinom8s, keep all correspondence, emails etc. Send them to your personal email address too in case you leave quickly so to speak....

EagleBeagle · Post by **EagleBeagle** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:32 pm

Blackstone wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:34 am There is only so long you can bang your head against the brick wall!

I would ensure that it can be seen that you have tried to make improvements and change in the event of an unfortunate incident.

Keep plugging away but I would also be looking for another role.

I had a similar thing at a company i had been with for 19 year. Improvements were made but it was a battle. I was H&S manager for the last 3 years of those 19 and eventually had enough. It took me 7 months to find another role but once id made my mind up, i knew i would leave at some point!

Good luck!

Thanks Blackstone, that's what I'm thinking. There's improvements that can be made, and be seen to be made, but they seem to happen on the factory floor and almost in-spite of, not because of management.

billinom8s wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:50 am Yep, i would be backing up any proof that you've tried, emailing plenty of questions out asking to implement change or questioning why it's not being recognised. Create that paper trail, save EVERYTHING and cover your backside as you know that if it all goes sideways they will try to drop you in it.

Have to try and understand why they even have a H&S position if they aren't going to listen or use it.

Safety wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:59 pm Agree with billinom8s, keep all correspondence, emails etc. Send them to your personal email address too in case you leave quickly so to speak....

Yes, I've been already adopting that approach to show that I'm engaged, suggesting improvements to bring things up to a tolerable level in as practicable a way as possible.

Over the weekend I came across an excellent post from Stephen1974 previously on this site which should be a must-read for anyone in the situation in the same way I am: viewtopic.php?p=357300#p357300

Two previous Safety Managers have left over the past decade. I think it's one of these things where organisation's have previously had a Safety Manager and want another one to "tick the box", and once they've ticked that box they seem to think they don't really need to do anything else about safety.

billinom8s · Post by **billinom8s** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:01 am

make sure you've emailed all the proof, email trails, offers etc to your private email address off site so it can't be 'lost' during a server backup.

Post by **Jack Kane** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:21 pm

It's an unfortunate and difficult position you are in Eagle, I really feel for you.

I wouldn't think of it as 'giving up', I see it as a decision for your own wellbeing. If you're not in the position to move on from the company at the moment then by accepting that as it is, your decision is to carry on professionally advising (and influencing) the company to the best of your ability in the circumstances.

It sounds like you're doing the right things and trying to affect behaviours and attitudes for the better. I'm guessing that although you might be having a bit of a 'wobble' just now, your determination won't change and you will keep at it because it's the right thing to do. I believe that when people see you decide to fight the good fight and keep on going, they might not show they are listening and changing but they will be inside and don't want to shout from the rooftops about it. If they did, they might feel it could affect them negatively in their peer groups. It will start to change though, slowly, but it will.

I agree with everybody else above, keeping records is vital. One thing I'd encourage you to do would be to inform your top management formally of the legal position they will be in if they don't accept and act on the advice they are given, making sure to get 'read receipt' proof. As safety professionals we must close that loop and give management the final decision of accepting or ignoring their responsibilities. If we don't do that then we run the risk of not giving impartial and complete advice; if top management plead ignorance, obviously not a defence but it happens, then they will be left saying you didn't tell them...they didn't get your email...they're busy people, don't have time to read every single thing...etc. Give them all a person needs to make an informed decision and let them make theirs.

It might feel a bit of a lost cause or you might feel a bit helpless at times, but if we don't do these things our profession demands of us then it could mean change doesn't start to happen today, even if it's just a tiny drop in the ocean.

Our gang is bigger than their gang by the way

We're all here for you.

grim72 · Post by **grim72** » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:18 am

There is always a chance/opportunity for an "anonymous" individual to report the company to the HSE if the procedures/attitude is truly shocking. An official warning/threat of a substantial fine/or worse might shake the tree a little and force the powers that be to reconsider their actions?

Obviously in the meantime continue with the suggestions form everyone else to ensure you are the only one coming out of it all with any credibility if the proverbial were to hit the fan.

Post by **bernicarey** » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:16 pm

See my post here.
Eventually, if as bad as you think, it will be bad news for those involved.....
viewtopic.php?p=363614#p363614

EagleBeagle · Post by **EagleBeagle** » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:17 pm

Thanks for your support everyone. It's reassuring to know that I'm not alone and that most H&S folk have come across these sort of situations at some point in their careers and that I appear to have been taking the right approach in terms of doing the right thing in terms of continuing to make the best efforts to promote a change in culture while also creating a trail that shows exhaustive efforts are being made to change the way that "things have always been done".

@JackKane, I think your idea regarding formalising in writing the consequences of failure to implement advice is a good move which will drive senior management to at least tacitly acknowledge the position and make their choice: the old way or the safe way. At least no one can say they weren't told of the potential consequences.