Are Fires a Near Miss?????

[Messy]

My employer's H&S team has a relatively straightforward and well established system of reporting 'near-misses'. Currently fires are not defined as a near miss, so inevitably I am not hearing about all fire incidents. We have scores of premises and thousands of staff engaged in a range of low medium and high risk activities, so I would expect a number of incidents annually.

My view is that a small non-injury fire (including significant overheating of plant or installations) that has burnt out unnoticed, or has been dealt with in any way either - with or without the use of firefighting equipment - must be recorded and investigated. Overheated IT or electrical apparatus in one office could be staff failure or a inherent defect in the equipment which may be present elsewhere on the estate. Similarly, a deep fryer kitchen fire dealt with by a fire blanket could be a maintenance issue (thermostat or dirty oil) or staff training or some other matter that requires intervention.

Only by monitoring incidents can we learn, prevent and improve systems. But we have no fire reporting system even though we have a well used near miss procedure. Article 11 of the Fire Safety Order requires the Responsible Person to introduce effective measures for the 'monitoring and review of the preventive and protective measures'. The near miss procedure fits that requirement perfectly in my opinion

At this time, the H&S manager (fire safety is not his remit) does not want to change the process to include fire events.
So my questions to you are:
What does your employer do in relation to fire reporting?
Do you have a defined system or is it word of mouth?
Do you define 'fire' in relation to creating a reporting threshold? (to avoid burnt toast etc being reported)
How do you collate this information?
and what do you do with the data when reported?

This could be use fore ammo for me to create the change I require as I really haven't got the time (or energy) to reinvent the wheel and bring a duplicate reporting system in alongside the near-miss system

Thanks

[Smudger207]

Hi Messy,

So what does your employer classify a fires as?

As you say, you have to investigate these to identify the why's and how's.

Obviously for me in oil and gas its a straightforward incident and this will generate the required paperwork dependent upon the seriousness of the incident.

Smudger

[ddlh]

I agree with smudger that a fire be classed as an incident.

" significant overheating of plant or installations that has burnt out unnoticed" - I would treat as a near miss and investigate accordingly depending on the potential outcome.

Dave

[stephen1974]

All fires should be investigated, no matter how small, as spontaneous combustion is extremley unlikey as a cause so somewhere along the line safety has failed in some way. Where a fire is spotted and dealt with, or isnt but is very minor and burns itself out, you still have to consider worse case and assume it isnt seen and doesnt burn out. You have to know why it started and see if the cause is one that can be prevented in the future.

And it shouldnt just be fires. Obvious signs of overheating need to be reported and investigated.

I once had a deisel generator on site that leaked oil. That oil overheated, started smoking and was spotted by a maintenance guy. No fire. But had we not investigated and taken steps to deal with the leak, perhaps at a time when no employees were around, that oil could have caught fire, right next to 5000 litres of deisel, and a mains gas supply, next to a building attached directly to a hotel.

Think worse case. Always.

[Siblo]

When I started reading this I assumed it was about classification, is a Fire a near miss or an accident?

I class them as accidents, an occurrence that costs us, whether its a physical cost, financial or time lost.

Even an overheating bearing costs us the price of the bearing and time (or down-time) to replace or repair.

To simply not classify or report them is madness I tell you...... madness..... no good will come of it..

Its all down to how many resources you want to throw at H&S, I know someone who works for network rail on track maintenance, every team member MUST report 5 near misses a week, they actively look for things sticking out of the ground, uncovered holes etc..

Just 2 pence from me..

[Terry Daine]

Completely agree that all of these events should be investigated.

Siblo, we run a similar system in my current role. Each premises must report so many near misses, which we call “Safety Improvement Opportunities”, each month. This is a KPI and questions are asked if they’re not met. Additional training or instruction may be provided as a result.

Would a fire (with no injuries) not be classified as a dangerous occurrence?

“An unplanned and undesired occurrence (incident) which has the potential to cause injury and which may or may not cause damage to property, equipment or the environment.”

Regards,

Terry.

[witsd]

I've always had issues with what is and isn't a near miss, but whichever definitions you are following, I'd say that a fire is either a near miss or an incident, and either way should be reported.