Refuge points / Temporary waiting spaces

[clio222]

Hi all, question around Refuge Points / Temporary Waiting Spaces.

Firstly are these the same ?.

I have always used the term "Refuge Points" however on looking for the specification of these (Building Standards Technical Handbook 2023) it makes reference to Temporary Waiting Spaces, just wondering if this is the correct terminology that I should be using ?.

Thanks in advance

[Messy]

It seems to be the same, but a Scottish v the rest of us thing (like battered Mars bars)

'Refuge' south of the border
Temporary Waiting Spaces' north of the border

Frankly neither explain their use in terms of they are designed for emergencies

[witsd]

Speaking as someone who moved from London to Glasgow, who gives a flying hoot what you call anything, so long as it does the job?

[WillPool]

Speaking as someone who moved from London to Glasgow, who gives a flying hoot what you call anything, so long as it does the job?

whilst I get the gist of what you mean, I would expect a judge to 'give a flying hoot' to what you call something, if anything ever ended up in court

Will

[witsd]

Speaking as someone who moved from London to Glasgow, who gives a flying hoot what you call anything, so long as it does the job?

whilst I get the gist of what you mean, I would expect a judge to 'give a flying hoot' to what you call something, if anything ever ended up in court

Will

Really though? So long as what you were doing was logical and you were able to justify your decisions, I really, really doubt any rational judge is going to throw the book at you for using the wrong term unless there's evidence that you were doing so for some nefarious purpose.

Is there any suggestion that this has happened previously?

[hammer1]

Hi all

Been a while

Interesting topic as this is a massive issue we face currently with residential developments.

We await final BS documents like BS9991 and evacuation lift BS EN to be published, however we have the London Plan which say one thing and Approved Document B Volume 1 say something totally different.

Refuge areas and EVC systems installed when the building is unmanaged, the not knowing the difference between rescue and evacuation (rescue falls under FRS responsibility , when does an evacuation turn into a rescue?) all become a headache for RP

Some may say for 'stay put' developments, the evacuation element stops when the resident has left and closed FED to their flat, this then turns into a rescue situation as something serious has gone wrong if the flat cannot contain fire/smoke or other residents require to leave building.

If the building acts how it should in a fire, why not use a lift ? especially a FF lift (not been interfaced with detection system)? Until smoke ingress into lift shaft what is the likelihood of fire in flat and lift area at same time? Would the resident be on ground floor way before the FRS turn up?

Developers just install refuge areas with no consideration how it will be managed, then they say FF lifts can be used but are not configured for evacuation and a 2 way comms with no one at the other end (think how long before FRS arrive/set up and complete dynamic RA, poor resident will be waiting for ages before they are reassured).

There a reason why it is not in current ADB for residential.

Interesting times indeed folks

[Alexis]

Hi all

Been a while

Interesting topic as this is a massive issue we face currently with residential developments.

We await final BS documents like BS9991 and evacuation lift BS EN to be published, however we have the London Plan which say one thing and Approved Document B Volume 1 say something totally different.

Refuge areas and EVC systems installed when the building is unmanaged, the not knowing the difference between rescue and evacuation (rescue falls under FRS responsibility , when does an evacuation turn into a rescue?) all become a headache for RP

Some may say for 'stay put' developments, the evacuation element stops when the resident has left and closed FED to their flat, this then turns into a rescue situation as something serious has gone wrong if the flat cannot contain fire/smoke or other residents require to leave building.

If the building acts how it should in a fire, why not use a lift ? especially a FF lift (not been interfaced with detection system)? Until smoke ingress into lift shaft what is the likelihood of fire in flat and lift area at same time? Would the resident be on ground floor way before the FRS turn up?

Developers just install refuge areas with no consideration how it will be managed, then they say FF lifts can be used but are not configured for evacuation and a 2 way comms with no one at the other end (think how long before FRS arrive/set up and complete dynamic RA, poor resident will be waiting for ages before they are reassured).

There a reason why it is not in current ADB for residential.

Interesting times indeed folks

Great to see you again Hammer. A while or not, you are always welcome. Many thanks for your input on this one.

[Messy]

Hi all

Been a while

Interesting topic as this is a massive issue we face currently with residential developments.

We await final BS documents like BS9991 and evacuation lift BS EN to be published, however we have the London Plan which say one thing and Approved Document B Volume 1 say something totally different.

Refuge areas and EVC systems installed when the building is unmanaged, the not knowing the difference between rescue and evacuation (rescue falls under FRS responsibility , when does an evacuation turn into a rescue?) all become a headache for RP

Some may say for 'stay put' developments, the evacuation element stops when the resident has left and closed FED to their flat, this then turns into a rescue situation as something serious has gone wrong if the flat cannot contain fire/smoke or other residents require to leave building.

If the building acts how it should in a fire, why not use a lift ? especially a FF lift (not been interfaced with detection system)? Until smoke ingress into lift shaft what is the likelihood of fire in flat and lift area at same time? Would the resident be on ground floor way before the FRS turn up?

Developers just install refuge areas with no consideration how it will be managed, then they say FF lifts can be used but are not configured for evacuation and a 2 way comms with no one at the other end (think how long before FRS arrive/set up and complete dynamic RA, poor resident will be waiting for ages before they are reassured).

There a reason why it is not in current ADB for residential.

Interesting times indeed folks

I rarely agree with Colin Todd, but his submission to the Hacket (or Moore-Bick) Inquiry basically said PEEPS and associated processes will not work in general residential blocks

Of course this didn't go down well with the more sensitive types, but he has a point. If the landlord hasn't got anyone on site, managing a 'disabled' evacuation is not viable

Meanwhile the fire safety industry has been left with a raft of advice and standards- much of it overlapping and contrary.

I am not aware of the London Plan. If it provides different standards for the capital, we will end up back in the pre RRO days of local byelaws and confused businesses who have estate across the UK

Sorry to get political but Theresa May stood outside the charred ruins of Grenfell in 2017 and promised change. Its 2024 and people still live in flats clad in unsuitable material, and the confusion in standards that was partly responsible for the fire have been added to by even more confusing legislation, guidance and standards.

The Tories have let the UK down here as they seem distracted by helping the house building and construction material Tory donors than they do helping those at risk

I am so pleased I am not working in residential blocks now and am happy to leave it in the hands of a very small group of capable experts like Hammer

[witsd]

I am very pleased to be working for a housing association that has dealt with anything close to being combustible cladding. Also being north of the border helps too.

It remains the case that thinking about low-rise amenity blocks takes up a lot more of my thinking time than any of our high-rises.