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Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

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Messy
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Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by Messy »

There are many published standards and lots of guidance to help when determining staircase capacities. These are the bread & butter of architects and fire safety professionals when determining occupancy levels,  staircases widths and the number of staircases required in a building. All seem to refer to descending staircases from upper floors 

I have been researching for standards and guides that relate to ascending staircases to reach a final exit - namely from sub basements levels. Its clear to me that people moving up a staircase will move at a noticeably slower rate that if they were descending.

I am working on a project where several thousand people may need to move up three basement levels in a simultaneous evacuation, but in my opinion, I cannot safely apply the usual staircase widths and capacity norms for this job

I am shocked to discover that Building Regs and British Standards (BS9999) do not appear to cover this important area. There has been some research done in the 1970s (Fruin), and I have found a Swedish paper from 2015 that relates to Computational Fluid Dynamics (clever fire safety engineering computer modelling systems). None of my research has been entirely successful.

Has anyone considered or had any dealing with establishing evacuation strategies for deep buildings or structures? Perhaps you could point me in the direction of some simple standards?

I have some details of Fruin's finding on different speeds of people moving up or downstairs, and may have to use this as the base of my strategy. I really do not feel entirely comfortable though
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by 1804 »

Hi Messy

B1 table 7 comes to mind. Also remember that as it is greater than 10m down, then there will be a requirement for fire fighting shafts/protected staircases, meaning that more time would be allowed for evacuation. This would help with calculations in terms of time taken to climb the stairs. Other than that, 9999 is not specific and there is something in 5588 but don't have a copy to hand, have a look through it, might be useful.

I don't know of any specific guidance specifically for vertical simultaneous evacuation from multiple basement levels. Best of luck with it.

Cheers

Martin
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by Messy »

Thanks Martin

I am minded to pass this to a fire safety engineering contractor to look at.

I have restricted the sub surface areas to ADB numbers so I am happy it's 'safe'. But understandably my employers want to squeeze as many people in as possible so I will call the FS boffins in
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by hammer1 »

I have seen the below evacuation modelling software system do wonders but is way way over my head .scratch

http://fseg.gre.ac.uk/exodus/exodus_products.html
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by hammer1 »

Messy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:18 pm Thanks Martin

I am minded to pass this to a fire safety engineering contractor to look at.

I have restricted the sub surface areas to ADB numbers so I am happy it's 'safe'. But understandably my employers want to squeeze as many people in as possible so I will call the FS boffins in
Surely with the numbers involved, the basements would have to have some dynamic smoke control systems in place, pressurised staircase and even sprinklers?
How can simultaneous evacuation be justified, suppose if there various MOE that lead to open air and not linked to the upper floors.

Fair play tackling this one, I be sending it to the highly paid engineers to assess :lol:
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by hammer1 »

Also have you a copy of CIBSE Guide E - Fire Engineering?

There is a section on means of escape and human factors that might be of interest but it doesn't cover multi basements sadly.
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by 1804 »

Messy

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2017/2623684/ref/

click on pdf to get the full paper

recently doing the first year of MSc in Risk Management + OHS gave me tips on finding such papers. This one inevitably brings out the maths, but this is not surprising as it is a maths/engineering response to a problem. Have a look and decide if you can use it before paying for the fire engineering solution folks to come in and bankrupt your budget

cheers

Martin
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by hammer1 »

martin1804 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:53 am Messy

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2017/2623684/ref/

click on pdf to get the full paper

recently doing the first year of MSc in Risk Management + OHS gave me tips on finding such papers. This one inevitably brings out the maths, but this is not surprising as it is a maths/engineering response to a problem. Have a look and decide if you can use it before paying for the fire engineering solution folks to come in and bankrupt your budget

cheers

Martin
Would not know where to even start with all that .scratch .shakingagain
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
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Messy
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Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by Messy »

martin1804 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:53 am Messy

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2017/2623684/ref/

click on pdf to get the full paper

recently doing the first year of MSc in Risk Management + OHS gave me tips on finding such papers. This one inevitably brings out the maths, but this is not surprising as it is a maths/engineering response to a problem. Have a look and decide if you can use it before paying for the fire engineering solution folks to come in and bankrupt your budget

cheers

Martin

Martin

Many thanks. I have a migraine after the first 5 pages, but hope to digest the remaining pages later after a lay down in a darkened room!!!

I am a great believer in multi agent stimulation (although my wife is not so keen), so I was grateful for the simplicity of the diagram below explaining the concept :shock: ;)
blimey.jpeg
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Messy
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Occupation: 46 years experience with a metropolitan Fire Brigade and then Fire Safety Manager for a global brand.

Now sort of retired from the fire safety game, but doing the odd job here and there to keep my grey matter working and as I hate sudoku and havent got the back for an allotment
Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
Has thanked: 363 times
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by Messy »

hammer1 wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:28 pm
Messy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:18 pm Thanks Martin

I am minded to pass this to a fire safety engineering contractor to look at.

I have restricted the sub surface areas to ADB numbers so I am happy it's 'safe'. But understandably my employers want to squeeze as many people in as possible so I will call the FS boffins in
Surely with the numbers involved, the basements would have to have some dynamic smoke control systems in place, pressurised staircase and even sprinklers?
How can simultaneous evacuation be justified, suppose if there various MOE that lead to open air and not linked to the upper floors.

Fair play tackling this one, I be sending it to the highly paid engineers to assess :lol:
Following research and the posts from yourself & Martin, I most certainly be getting in some help. I don't even know my 8 times table and only own a 40 year old Cassio calculator ;)

There are pressurised staircases, but no other smoke control systems or sprinklers. It has a enforcement audit due in November so that might be fun!!
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Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by hammer1 »

Messy wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:48 pm
hammer1 wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:28 pm
Messy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:18 pm Thanks Martin

I am minded to pass this to a fire safety engineering contractor to look at.

I have restricted the sub surface areas to ADB numbers so I am happy it's 'safe'. But understandably my employers want to squeeze as many people in as possible so I will call the FS boffins in
Surely with the numbers involved, the basements would have to have some dynamic smoke control systems in place, pressurised staircase and even sprinklers?
How can simultaneous evacuation be justified, suppose if there various MOE that lead to open air and not linked to the upper floors.

Fair play tackling this one, I be sending it to the highly paid engineers to assess :lol:
Following research and the posts from yourself & Martin, I most certainly be getting in some help. I don't even know my 8 times table and only own a 40 year old Cassio calculator ;)

There are pressurised staircases, but no other smoke control systems or sprinklers. It has a enforcement audit due in November so that might be fun!!
Funny enough I did a building today near the city with 3 basement levels, no where near the numbers you mention, however it had Vesda systems installed to the common/plant/office areas of the basements, total of 7 panels (all upper floors had your normal BS5839 Part L1 system). This is due to these systems being more sensitive (early warning for the peeps in the basement floors).

Also there is smoke extract along the common corridors (not seen that before) and pressurised staircases (to all 5 staircases).

They have a PAVA system/2 stage phased evac and sprinklers.

The cause and effect matrix for this site is something I feel even Stephen Hawking would struggle to get his head round .scratch :lol:
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
User avatar
Messy
Grand Shidoshi
Grand Shidoshi
Posts: 3585
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:59 am
17
Occupation: 46 years experience with a metropolitan Fire Brigade and then Fire Safety Manager for a global brand.

Now sort of retired from the fire safety game, but doing the odd job here and there to keep my grey matter working and as I hate sudoku and havent got the back for an allotment
Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
Has thanked: 363 times
Been thanked: 660 times

Re: Guidance for Strategy re Ascending Stairs to Reach a Final Exit???

Post by Messy »

hammer1 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:05 pm
The cause and effect matrix for this site is something I feel even Stephen Hawking would struggle to get his head round .scratch :lol:
Don't even go there.........I know exactly what you mean!!

I have project which involves designing a fire safety/evac strategy for a high rise 110,000m2 building. The evacuation strategy requires a replacement fire alarm control equipment, which is duplicated (n&1),with a phased evacuation plan using a new voice alarm system and a very long staff search time - plus more variations to BS 5839-1 that I can count.

There are so many devices, including thousands of heads (heat, smoke, VESDA, linear and beam) & 2,000 dampers linked to the system plus: 28 lifts, ventilation system, 2 x kitchen extraction systems, sprinklers, water mist system, Inergen systems, 2 x Ansul systems, numerous stair pressurisation systems, a document vacuum system with special dampers, smoke curtains and interactive fire exit signage .

The cause and effect matrix is far too simultaneous for my mind. The new duplicate panels have been in place for months and installed wired in tandem with the existing standard so it can soak and we can fault find without causing any unwanted alarms (for which there is a zero tolerance).

The fire alarm programming expert walked off the site at Xmas, causing months of delays and the budget has skyrocketed . I will be glad to get this job finished before my head explodes as I have literally has sleepless nights over this one

The whole set up is now subject to a 3rd party scrutiny by a separate fire alarm expert team, before we switch over :shock: :shock:

I wonder if Stephen Hawkings is available..................... ;)
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