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System to track attendance for fire emergency

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TheFox
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System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by TheFox »

Hi,

I am currently working on some ideas to actually track the people that went in and out during fire evacuation within a building premises.

My concern is location of the people during a fire emergency. We don't know where they went and getting them to tap their proximity card all the time is not practical because of tail gating.

I am looking at RFID, does anyone have any experiences in these aspects or anyone have a better solution to share? :)
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Messy »

Of course it all depends on the nature of the fire risk (in terms of predicted speed of fire development, layout and size of the premises and numbers of staff

If the fire growth is likely to be very rapid (petrol refinery) or the premises is huge and complicated with just a few staff - perhaps RFID may be an option.

Roll calls or my preference, sweeping by wardens is by far the best method for the vast majority of buildings

Is there a reason you are considering this path??
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by TheFox »

There is a concern whether we can get the people in the building out safely and we have to know where the people are.

We need to know whether they are still inside the building or they are out of the premises.

We can do a role call or get the fire wardens to sweep the area but if someone is still missing from the attendance from the role call, the whole world will go crazy looking for that person.

We want to focus our resources for people that is still in the building and needs help rather than to search high and low for someone who is already out of the building.

We don't mind spending money to make sure our employees are safe during an emergency.
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Messy »

I still dont understand why a sweep wouldnt satisfy your requirement (& the legal requirements that all responsible persons have) of accounting for staff.

If the sweep is well managed and staff (wardens) trained, an 'all clear' from a sweep means nobody is in the building. Why do you need another layer of systems.

The only time a sweep would be unsuccessful would be if the wardens missed some of the building (training and drills will mitigate this), if there are insufficient wardens available (ensuring a resilient number of wardens are trained wil reduce this risk) or if the wardens cannot access parts of the building (preplanning will help)

I am most definitely not saying you are wrong, but tens of thousands of businesses use sweep or roll call. Often a simple/light touch rather than something more complex is more likely to work on the day

In the event you have an all clear from.a sweep and then find out Mabel is missing, you.can be confident she's not in the burning building, so why the flap?
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

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Hmm yup yup, a sweep will definitely be conducted but the problem with sweeping is that, when there are thick smoke, the sweeper would not be able to enter certain areas.

If we assume that all employees are healthy then they can probably respond when the sweeper shouts but if for some reason they are allergic to the smoke or pass out, they will not be able to respond. The sweeper assumes that that area is clear. The sweeper is not going to go into every corner in the company to check, they will only be doing a generic sweep.

During some scenario injection during the meeting triggered some events that management decided to add an additional layer.
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Messy »

In basic terms, the responsible person has legal responsibilities to draw up plans to ensure a safe evacuation is carried out. A sweep, roll call or more complex system will be required to do the job

This does not mean that any staff - and especially the persons (always in pairs) sweeping- is required to enter a smokey atmosphere or room. Indeed, quite the opposite. Our wardens are instructed to call off any sweep if they encounter smoke, fire or even an unexpected strong smell of burning on their sweep route. It is their responsibility to stay safe and leave if they have any doubts

By this stage, this is no longer an evacuation, but a rescue. Unless you have a trained response team with the necessary equipment and PPE, rescues are really a task for the fire service.
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by witsd »

A warden's first duty is to themselves. At the first sign of danger, they should evacuate like any other member of staff, and the areas they have not checked will be noted and reported to the fire and rescue service as they arrive.

RFID sounds like a nice idea, but assuming that the system is based within the building that is on fire, how can you know that it's providing reliable information, or if it is even still functioning at all?

Personally, I'm with Messy – a good sweep system with enough trained wardens is really all you should need.
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by bernicarey »

TheFox wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 8:03 am Hmm yup yup, a sweep will definitely be conducted but the problem with sweeping is that, when there are thick smoke, the sweeper would not be able to enter certain areas.

If we assume that all employees are healthy then they can probably respond when the sweeper shouts but if for some reason they are allergic to the smoke or pass out, they will not be able to respond. The sweeper assumes that that area is clear. The sweeper is not going to go into every corner in the company to check, they will only be doing a generic sweep.

During some scenario injection during the meeting triggered some events that management decided to add an additional layer.
Ummm..... Although not party to detailed knowledge of the organisation nor it's premises, it sounds to me as though, potentially, the scenario discussion has exceeded the bounds of reasonably foreseeable and is trying to reach a point of failure no matter what.
Whilst such discussion is very reasonable in the realms of a COMAH site, is it correct for your organisation?

I'm sensing a Kobayashi Maru situation developing ..... .geek
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Jack Kane »

TheFox wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 8:27 am getting them to tap their proximity card all the time is not practical because of tail gating
Tailgating is unacceptable and should be enforced. Training, education, awareness, monitoring, testing etc etc. These are the rules and have multi-functions, not least regarding emergency systems and security.

Is there an option for you to install additional proximity swipe points at emergency assembly points? I'm asking because we have this and with the help of evac marshals people can be herded through to 'de-register' at the assembly points. It does away with roll call as they system removes each person when they swipe at the assembly point.

Costly? Yes, but it's the route our site has gone down for various reasons. I'm just throwing in another option .salut
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Steb »

I'm not sure if this is viable, but could a phone app give a precise location? I know neurowear can be picked up by a phone app, and Snap Map is used for stalking, but i don't know how accurate it is. i would have assumed that with today's technology you should be able to at least know if the person you are tracking is in a building - maybe even which room they are in. just saying, maybe there is a cheap and easy alternative.
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by witsd »

Steb wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:37 pm I'm not sure if this is viable, but could a phone app give a precise location? I know neurowear can be picked up by a phone app, and Snap Map is used for stalking, but i don't know how accurate it is. i would have assumed that with today's technology you should be able to at least know if the person you are tracking is in a building - maybe even which room they are in. just saying, maybe there is a cheap and easy alternative.
As long as no-one forgets to bring in their phone, the battery is working and no-one leaves it behind when they evacuate.

Clearly, we need to microchip all employees!
We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one.' We forget that we still have to make a study of 'and.'
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Messy
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Re: System to track attendance for fire emergency

Post by Messy »

Steb wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:37 pm I'm not sure if this is viable, but could a phone app give a precise location? I know neurowear can be picked up by a phone app, and Snap Map is used for stalking, but i don't know how accurate it is. i would have assumed that with today's technology you should be able to at least know if the person you are tracking is in a building - maybe even which room they are in. just saying, maybe there is a cheap and easy alternative.
There was a system based on an evacuation app at Firex the other week
When you exit the building, u tell the app you are safe. Simple use of technology which could work in some areas

Visitors and contractors would need to be accounted for too. It didn't.do that. In fact it didnt work at all at Firex. To be fair, I saw in 5mins into day 1 and they clearly weren't set up and ready to go
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