If your looking at occupancy levels then 60 persons is single MOE, where alternative MOE is in place then the 45 degree angle needs to be assessed to see if the alternative MOE can be used. If not then look at what compensatory measures are in place and look to see if you want to use ADB or BS9999 as your guidance tool.Paul1979 wrote:Hi hammer, yes refurbishment about 3 years ago...not sure about building controls but would they have signed off occupancy levels too?
Escape route / angle of diversions...
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- hammer1
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
There is only one exit from that main room.
A fire in the lobby will trap everyone.
A fire in the lobby will trap everyone.
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
That's why it should be a protected lobby to prevent fire developing in first place.baywaves wrote:There is only one exit from that main room.
A fire in the lobby will trap everyone.
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
I agree with you that "Zero tolerance in the lobby area is a must".
But its a social club being used for cafe / restaurant / bar, and you know as well as I do, that it doesn't matter if its 'officially' declared as being a protected lobby, some idiot will think its a good idea to put a Christmas tree in there, or a drinks machine, a photocopier or something similar.
Then there's the other discussion to be had - "Is the ground floor lobby protected from the staircase"?
But its a social club being used for cafe / restaurant / bar, and you know as well as I do, that it doesn't matter if its 'officially' declared as being a protected lobby, some idiot will think its a good idea to put a Christmas tree in there, or a drinks machine, a photocopier or something similar.
Then there's the other discussion to be had - "Is the ground floor lobby protected from the staircase"?
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
Hi, the staircase isn't protected at ground floor level at all. The ground floor is open plan restaurant / cafe. There are FDs to the kitchen and staff areas. But the staircase is open until you reach the first floor where the Georgian wired fire doors are.
Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
Well that's not good.
So are you saying that if any fire occurred on the ground floor, the smoke from that fire would go up the open stairway to the Georgian wired fire doors on the first floor.
Bye the way, where has the floor plan gone?. I can't see it anymore in this thread.
So are you saying that if any fire occurred on the ground floor, the smoke from that fire would go up the open stairway to the Georgian wired fire doors on the first floor.
Bye the way, where has the floor plan gone?. I can't see it anymore in this thread.
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
Hi Bywaves,
I'm not sure what happened with the floor plans so I've re-attached them. I've also included one for the ground floor. The staircase shown on the ground floor is internal and leads up to the Georgian glazed fire doors on first floor.
The staircase at ground floor level is open and discharges in to the cafe / restaurant seating area. So the staircase is protected at the top by the fire Georgian double doors.
All doors on the ground floor [kitchen and staff room] are fire doors with 30-min rating. So if a fire occurred on the ground floor [seating area] yes, it would allow smoke to travel up to the Georgian glazed doors. But if a fire occurred in the main hazard [kitchen] it is contained.
The building regs and local F&RS haven't commented on protecting the staircase at the bottom with a lobby.
Let me know what you think and many thanks for all your help.
I'm not sure what happened with the floor plans so I've re-attached them. I've also included one for the ground floor. The staircase shown on the ground floor is internal and leads up to the Georgian glazed fire doors on first floor.
The staircase at ground floor level is open and discharges in to the cafe / restaurant seating area. So the staircase is protected at the top by the fire Georgian double doors.
All doors on the ground floor [kitchen and staff room] are fire doors with 30-min rating. So if a fire occurred on the ground floor [seating area] yes, it would allow smoke to travel up to the Georgian glazed doors. But if a fire occurred in the main hazard [kitchen] it is contained.
The building regs and local F&RS haven't commented on protecting the staircase at the bottom with a lobby.
Let me know what you think and many thanks for all your help.
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
So if a fire did break out in the Kitchen, admittedly the most probably place (although we can't discount an electrical event anywhere), the entire place has to get out via the main entrance?
This really does not give me a comfortable feeling.
I can't spend any longer looking at this right now, but I'll be extremely interested in others comments.
This really does not give me a comfortable feeling.
I can't spend any longer looking at this right now, but I'll be extremely interested in others comments.
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
If a fire broke out in the kitchen, occupants upstairs could use the alternate external staircase.
Occupants downstairs would typically use the main entrance. Occupants in the kitchen could also use the fire exit from the kitchen.
[apologies, the plans are just drawn up on excel so fairly basic]
Occupants downstairs would typically use the main entrance. Occupants in the kitchen could also use the fire exit from the kitchen.
[apologies, the plans are just drawn up on excel so fairly basic]
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
Oh didn't know 1st floor has an alternative MOE, so does the kitchen ground floor, so your real concern then is occupancy levels for the 1st floor, remember to discount a MOE as it is not lobby protected.Paul1979 wrote:If a fire broke out in the kitchen, occupants upstairs could use the alternate external staircase.
Occupants downstairs would typically use the main entrance. Occupants in the kitchen could also use the fire exit from the kitchen.
[apologies, the plans are just drawn up on excel so fairly basic]
You know AFD coverage? is it category L2 system installed?
That the thing with these types of threads hard to ascertain when you not been to site goes without saying any assumptions should be taken as that
The song goes...{I'm gonna walk down to electric avenue and I'm gonna say ' have you got PAT testing records for all that mate'}
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
I am much more relaxed about this one. Unless I have missed something, it seems to me that the travel distance from the furthest point upstairs to the flat roof is around 18 to 20m. At that point you have two MOEs which are separated by the fie doors at the top of the stairs.
I am not sure what all this talk of protected lobbies is about as you cannot have a protected lobby unless it leads into a protected escape route that remains protected to the final exit. That is not the case here. I am assuming the route over the flat roof to the ground is satisfactory, lit by maintained EL and edge protected
I may restrict numbers unless the so called lobby entrance was widened, but I cannot be sure from the details supplied
The condition & maintenance regime of the of the doors should be strict as they are critical.
Good training and regular drills, would help lower the risks
I am not sure what all this talk of protected lobbies is about as you cannot have a protected lobby unless it leads into a protected escape route that remains protected to the final exit. That is not the case here. I am assuming the route over the flat roof to the ground is satisfactory, lit by maintained EL and edge protected
I may restrict numbers unless the so called lobby entrance was widened, but I cannot be sure from the details supplied
The condition & maintenance regime of the of the doors should be strict as they are critical.
Good training and regular drills, would help lower the risks
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Re: Escape route / angle of diversions...
Hi messy
Yes, travel distances are ok - no more than 18m from any point in the room to either the double FDs at top of stairs, or the fire exit to the flat roof. They have AFD and EL and the flat roof is edge protected. The metal staircase is a bit of a mess and they're storing rubbish underneath it!!! But that can be fixed and will have to be monitored daily.
The main and original question was whether it was seen that there is one MOE from the room, or two? As the FDs to the stairway and the fire exit door to the flat roof are very close together. If you stand in the main room, the angle of diversion is less than 45 degrees...
So should the occupancy be limited to that of a one door room meaning it is 60? My feeling is that if a fire occurred in the space outside of the room, then BOTH exits would be blocked, which could potentially lead to 60 trapped people??
The fight between the FRS and the council licencing guy is still ongoing by the way....at present the client is restricting numbers upstairs to 60 as a safe guard.
Yes, travel distances are ok - no more than 18m from any point in the room to either the double FDs at top of stairs, or the fire exit to the flat roof. They have AFD and EL and the flat roof is edge protected. The metal staircase is a bit of a mess and they're storing rubbish underneath it!!! But that can be fixed and will have to be monitored daily.
The main and original question was whether it was seen that there is one MOE from the room, or two? As the FDs to the stairway and the fire exit door to the flat roof are very close together. If you stand in the main room, the angle of diversion is less than 45 degrees...
So should the occupancy be limited to that of a one door room meaning it is 60? My feeling is that if a fire occurred in the space outside of the room, then BOTH exits would be blocked, which could potentially lead to 60 trapped people??
The fight between the FRS and the council licencing guy is still ongoing by the way....at present the client is restricting numbers upstairs to 60 as a safe guard.