Weekly tests in a certain type of residential building...

[hammer1]

Hi people, hope your well. Thought I bring a topic from another site to your attention, it refers to the practicability of weekly tests in certain type of residential (normally having only x 1 break glass call point).

Reading BS5839 Part 1 (as Part 6 points here for Grade A systems) the main purpose of the weekly test is testing the circuit that links to the sounders (however not solely for this purpose to ensure ALL sounders are operational).........however in my experience I have seen the testers silence the sounders when doing the test for obvious reasons when at a residential (management/ communication/confusion issues), therefore compromises one of the aspects of doing such a test under BS.

Add the fact in regards to some residential you may only have x 1 manual break glass call point and in comparison to commercial buildings you may have 20 or even 100. Testing the one in residential, 4 times a month over the 12 month period??

BS Part 1 also states about (employees?) working out of hours that a monthly bell test should be included to ensure they are familiar with the sounders, so if we are going to stick by the book, are we going to have testes around 7pm when most folk are home in their flats as the current weekly at 10am, 70% folk are not in and at work??

If we are only doing it weekly to ensure it is alive, what about the 7 days in-between??

Also, I feel the BS Part 6 referring to Part 1 on testing/maintenance should have been looked at during the revision as the two can have very different scenarios in this regard.

Think we need to read section 44.1 on BS Part 1 as we should not miss the main purpose and goal of maintenance/testing.


Can I ask your opinions on what you would do in such sceneries if I was your client. i am talking about converted houses here pre 1991 building regulations with a communal fire alarm system, interlinked with flats which have a 'all out' policy and only x 1 break glass call point located by the main entrance door to the building.


If we look into the text of the BS and the reason behind the weekly test, it states employees, it states monthly out of hours tests all of which are not applicable for residential. As I say I have seen in most cases the tester silence the sounders for residential, no point having call points if the sounders don't work?. I see that we are cherry picking parts of the BS to enforce and parts not to enforce, why is that??

Is there any case studies where its gone to court where the RP had a quarterly test inspection and a monthly call point test?? I would hope a Judge would read the detail and the reasons behind the BS and that the RP is trying to ensure to the best of their ability the required testing/maintenance is in place, surely a RP with no testing/maintenance would be going to Court first.

I thought the point of risk assessing is to move away from prescriptive and assess each site individually? If we stuck to the book on all BS and building regs the world would come to a halt surely not?.

Like I say, where unmanned I have never seen the daily checks of E/L completed, but this is in the BS? why is that acceptable? and like on another thread, I am seeing more and more 100% fire alarm testing taking place. Buildings which have had visits from fire offices at various times.

[Alexis]

Hi Hammer.

I think people have missed this one, so bringing it back again for a second viewing and hopefully some views. Above my head sorry Hammer.

[hammer1]

Think everyone went running for cover to be honest

Thanks anyway, hope all is well in Bonny Scotland, I see they have re introduced the old foe football fixture of Scotland v England in November at Celtic Park

[Alexis]

Think everyone went running for cover to be honest

Thanks anyway, hope all is well in Bonny Scotland, I see they have re introduced the old foe football fixture of Scotland v England in November at Celtic Park

I didn't know that!! Set for 18th November, which is my birthday, so hopefully it's a draw with no penalties.

[Messy]

Sorry Hammer, I was most definitely one of those who ran for cover

I haven't been involved in residential FRAs for over 4 years now. I understand a lot of new guidance is available which I have not read, so TBH, I am a little behind in this area.

I have been unhappy with the requirement to carry out weekly tests on part one systems in flats and have sought guidance from former colleagues in the LFB fire safety dept. Most of them also ran for cover and when they got there, they grabbed their BS5839-1 'comfort blanket' which they would apply verbatim, rather than using a common sense approach.

Ever since the common parts of flats came into fire safety legislation, IMO the issue of fire detection has been a bit of a dogs dinner. There's plenty of guidance on when to install it (Govt FS Guides & Lacors were the first), but next to no guidance on how to maintain it and, as just as important, who will respond, silence and reset a common part AFD system at 03:00

I am fortunate that my job means that i have no involvement residential now ( which makes me ), so I am not in a good place to comment. I am gunna be a bit cheeky though and wonder if you do form an opinion, or consensus - can you please share it on here

Good luck

[draiggoch]

Hammer,
We have had this issue in the past and we received the following guidance from the fire service.

"With reference to your enquiry, BS5839: Part 1, sets out recommendations and guidelines rather than a rigid framework. One of the aspects regarding testing is that weekly testing is a fallback position in the absence of any specific recommendation by the manufacturer of the equipment. If there is a specific recommendation for a given occupancy, you would be justified in using that provided that it is recorded and the source confirmed.

I am deeply uncomfortable with leaving systems for a month in premises that have an history of interference with alarm systems or where there are very vulnerable persons present.

Could I suggest a possible route to address this?

Where you have a premise without vulnerable persons being resident and with an alarm system with a confirmed, recorded history of fault-free operation for at least 6 months and a similar period of non-interference with the alarm system, I would suggest that you could be justified in giving such a premise a “low risk” rating. You might choose to suggest that, assuming you have a full system check every 3 months, you could do a routine test every 4 weeks.

Similarly, if you do have vulnerable persons present but a similar, recorded history as above, you might apply a “moderate” risk rating and test (e.g.) every 2 weeks. The period between full system checks should not be more than 3 months.

Any other property will demonstrate the need for constant vigilance and should maintain a weekly check.

I would not advocate a period of more than one month between routine tests under any circumstances (and that even this period must be justified as described above).

Clearly, any system that you do adopt should be fully risk assessed and recorded. Furthermore, there must be a mechanism where premises can move from one group to another according to their occupancies and histories: again, this should be recorded.

I have to state that any scheme that you implement and that departs from the weekly testing regime will be at the organisation’s risk; however, proper risk management utilising available resources is better than setting an aspirational target and constantly failing to meet it."

Hope this helps.
D.

[hammer1]

Hammer,
We have had this issue in the past and we received the following guidance from the fire service.

"With reference to your enquiry, BS5839: Part 1, sets out recommendations and guidelines rather than a rigid framework. One of the aspects regarding testing is that weekly testing is a fallback position in the absence of any specific recommendation by the manufacturer of the equipment. If there is a specific recommendation for a given occupancy, you would be justified in using that provided that it is recorded and the source confirmed.

I am deeply uncomfortable with leaving systems for a month in premises that have an history of interference with alarm systems or where there are very vulnerable persons present.

Could I suggest a possible route to address this?

Where you have a premise without vulnerable persons being resident and with an alarm system with a confirmed, recorded history of fault-free operation for at least 6 months and a similar period of non-interference with the alarm system, I would suggest that you could be justified in giving such a premise a “low risk” rating. You might choose to suggest that, assuming you have a full system check every 3 months, you could do a routine test every 4 weeks.

Similarly, if you do have vulnerable persons present but a similar, recorded history as above, you might apply a “moderate” risk rating and test (e.g.) every 2 weeks. The period between full system checks should not be more than 3 months.

Any other property will demonstrate the need for constant vigilance and should maintain a weekly check.

I would not advocate a period of more than one month between routine tests under any circumstances (and that even this period must be justified as described above).

Clearly, any system that you do adopt should be fully risk assessed and recorded. Furthermore, there must be a mechanism where premises can move from one group to another according to their occupancies and histories: again, this should be recorded.

I have to state that any scheme that you implement and that departs from the weekly testing regime will be at the organisation’s risk; however, proper risk management utilising available resources is better than setting an aspirational target and constantly failing to meet it."

Hope this helps.
D.

Thanks for that mate, but as stated 90% of tests are silenced with the circuit disconnected for the sounders so the main purpose of weekly tests is not even completed, surely if they have concerns of the system, having the sounders tests would be required (management nightmare for resi). If you read Part 1 it states the main purpose is for people to be familiar with the sounders, it even states having a monthly test where you have (out of hours working) so if we adapt that to resi then are we to have tests in the evenings when most people are at home?.

Are we so uneasy about AFD systems even with all the modern technology that we must have weekly tests as cannot trust it to last more than a month?