Fire risk assessment audit
Moderator: Moderators
Fire risk assessment audit
Hi
I need to start auditing all the fire risk assessments that have been conducted in the communal areas of our sheltered housing etc. but I really don't know where to start with it! They are all documented and although I know the fire legislation reasonably well, I really don't know how to begin! Could someone please give me some pointers or any help at all?
Many thanks.
I need to start auditing all the fire risk assessments that have been conducted in the communal areas of our sheltered housing etc. but I really don't know where to start with it! They are all documented and although I know the fire legislation reasonably well, I really don't know how to begin! Could someone please give me some pointers or any help at all?
Many thanks.
- Messy
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 3588
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:59 am
- 17
- Occupation: 46 years experience with a metropolitan Fire Brigade and then Fire Safety Manager for a global brand.
Now sort of retired from the fire safety game, but doing the odd job here and there to keep my grey matter working and as I hate sudoku and havent got the back for an allotment - Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
- Has thanked: 369 times
- Been thanked: 663 times
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
H&S Bod
I don't understand what you mean by the term 'auditing'?
Current fire safety legislation - The RR(FS)O 2005 - makes it a requirement for the Responsible Person to complete a fire risk assessment and review it when necessary -ie keep it up to date.
It also makes provision for the enforcement authority (usually the local fire service) to audit the risk assessment periodically to ensure that it (and all other parts of the fire strategy) is suitable and sufficient.
This is probably just an issue of language/semantics here, so what are your intentions (what do you hope to achieve)?????
I don't understand what you mean by the term 'auditing'?
Current fire safety legislation - The RR(FS)O 2005 - makes it a requirement for the Responsible Person to complete a fire risk assessment and review it when necessary -ie keep it up to date.
It also makes provision for the enforcement authority (usually the local fire service) to audit the risk assessment periodically to ensure that it (and all other parts of the fire strategy) is suitable and sufficient.
This is probably just an issue of language/semantics here, so what are your intentions (what do you hope to achieve)?????
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Hi Messy
Thanks for your response. I haven't made it clear. What's happening is, other members of staff are conducting the fire risk assessments and I've been set the task of checking through them, randomly to ensure that they are sufficient. Does that make sense? I don't really know where to start with them so was just looking for some pointers!
Many thanks.
Thanks for your response. I haven't made it clear. What's happening is, other members of staff are conducting the fire risk assessments and I've been set the task of checking through them, randomly to ensure that they are sufficient. Does that make sense? I don't really know where to start with them so was just looking for some pointers!
Many thanks.
- Ian Rienewerf
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 2859
- Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:09 am
- 17
- Occupation: Risk Management Systems
- Location: Morpeth, Northumberland
- Been thanked: 39 times
- Contact:
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
A fire risk assessment course would be useful.
Simular to what your staff have received to make then competent people to conduct the initial fire risk assesments.
I always recommend the 5-day gold one advertised here.
http://www.thefiresafetyconsultancy.co. ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simular to what your staff have received to make then competent people to conduct the initial fire risk assesments.
I always recommend the 5-day gold one advertised here.
http://www.thefiresafetyconsultancy.co. ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.irems.co.uk
Risk management for companies with 5 to 50 employees
Risk management for companies with 5 to 50 employees
- Messy
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 3588
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:59 am
- 17
- Occupation: 46 years experience with a metropolitan Fire Brigade and then Fire Safety Manager for a global brand.
Now sort of retired from the fire safety game, but doing the odd job here and there to keep my grey matter working and as I hate sudoku and havent got the back for an allotment - Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
- Has thanked: 369 times
- Been thanked: 663 times
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
I agree with Ian, that a suitable course is perhaps essential to prepare you for this task.
If you are auditing a FRA, you must be at least as competent as the person who has compiled it and without formal training, I am not sure how you would achieve the necessary skills for such a 'quality control' check.
In addition, if you receive the same level of input as those compiling the FRA, you are likely to make the same mistakes (eg. miss the same issues). So a suitable course is a good start (and skills you can take with you if/when you move on!!)
If you are auditing a FRA, you must be at least as competent as the person who has compiled it and without formal training, I am not sure how you would achieve the necessary skills for such a 'quality control' check.
In addition, if you receive the same level of input as those compiling the FRA, you are likely to make the same mistakes (eg. miss the same issues). So a suitable course is a good start (and skills you can take with you if/when you move on!!)
-
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 7098
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:49 am
- 20
- Occupation: Health and Safety Officer
- Location: Scotland
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Training is certainly part of what people carrying out fire RAs need but they also need experience. Giving people ticklists which are checked centrally is not going to impress a fire service officer unless the checking includes a visit to each location by a competent person with the necessary training and experience.
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Thanks for all your responses. I'll have a look what training is out there and what my employer is willing to pay for and take it from there!
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
- Jason Miller
- Newbie
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:11 pm
- 17
- Occupation: Fire Safety Expert
- Location: Online
- Contact:
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Also, bear in mind the "blame culture" so I'd be a bit wary of becoming the FRA auditor without having the training to properly do the job
Jason Miller
Genuinely Approved Fire Protection Products at genuine online prices
With a written 100% money-back Guarantee on every page
Genuinely Approved Fire Protection Products at genuine online prices
With a written 100% money-back Guarantee on every page
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Hi there
Just to go slightly off at a tangent!
I had a visit this week from the Fire Service (to serve notice), managed to duck it, as the council is the responsible person.
You think you are having problems with FRA's !!!
They are too
The only thing they are interested in is
Significant findings and the review dates (what is to be done and when) woe betide if they are out of date!
Records (Training, Instruction, Inspection) - get a decent logbook and do the checks!
The methodology (PAS 79 or DCLG or whatever) is neither here or there, it is your conclusions and what is to be done and by whom.
Remember the law isn't as prescriptive as the FPA 1971, it is up to you to show how the risk is managed and what is deemed acceptable (in a broad sense).
The great emphasis is on the "responsible person" and as such that is someone on site!
A certain council i know has put their staff on a "train the trainer" half day fire lecture course and deem that as suitable and sufficient for delivering local induction.
They are also getting mixed up in their procedural policy between a competent and responsible person!!
For me there is a lot of sites which I FRA and update, however i involve the staff who are working there and know the site better in the process.
Exactly what i do when doing RA's.
The NEBOSH FRM course is the MINIMUM, i recommend to be able to carry out an FRA!
I then train the site manager on the day to day policing and fire prevention as well as using and filling in the Fire Log.
Like it has been said previously ticklists lead to restriction and blinkered approach to FRA.
I have a template of my FRA and fill the info as i walk around, I also take a camera and measuring tape/ laser measure for travel distances.
Ask yourself this...... would you rely on someone with no training to write a SSoW or RA if they do not know the area, task or experience or training?
I think the definition of responsible person could do with more clarity, mind you we have the same issue with competent person already
Chaz
Just to go slightly off at a tangent!
I had a visit this week from the Fire Service (to serve notice), managed to duck it, as the council is the responsible person.
You think you are having problems with FRA's !!!
They are too
The only thing they are interested in is
Significant findings and the review dates (what is to be done and when) woe betide if they are out of date!
Records (Training, Instruction, Inspection) - get a decent logbook and do the checks!
The methodology (PAS 79 or DCLG or whatever) is neither here or there, it is your conclusions and what is to be done and by whom.
Remember the law isn't as prescriptive as the FPA 1971, it is up to you to show how the risk is managed and what is deemed acceptable (in a broad sense).
The great emphasis is on the "responsible person" and as such that is someone on site!
A certain council i know has put their staff on a "train the trainer" half day fire lecture course and deem that as suitable and sufficient for delivering local induction.
They are also getting mixed up in their procedural policy between a competent and responsible person!!
For me there is a lot of sites which I FRA and update, however i involve the staff who are working there and know the site better in the process.
Exactly what i do when doing RA's.
The NEBOSH FRM course is the MINIMUM, i recommend to be able to carry out an FRA!
I then train the site manager on the day to day policing and fire prevention as well as using and filling in the Fire Log.
Like it has been said previously ticklists lead to restriction and blinkered approach to FRA.
I have a template of my FRA and fill the info as i walk around, I also take a camera and measuring tape/ laser measure for travel distances.
Ask yourself this...... would you rely on someone with no training to write a SSoW or RA if they do not know the area, task or experience or training?
I think the definition of responsible person could do with more clarity, mind you we have the same issue with competent person already
Chaz
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
Hi
Thanks for all the responses, all help is much appreciated! It really is a minefield and while I know the legislation fairly well, it's the putting it into practice that I am concerned about so I am going to approach my employer about sending me on a fire safety course. I think if would be very interesting and extremely useful for me!! Does the NEBOSH course go into the practical side because I really want a course that's going to be very practical, rather than just going over legislation. Can anyone let me know what this course involves or if there are any other courses they would recommend?
Thanks.
Thanks for all the responses, all help is much appreciated! It really is a minefield and while I know the legislation fairly well, it's the putting it into practice that I am concerned about so I am going to approach my employer about sending me on a fire safety course. I think if would be very interesting and extremely useful for me!! Does the NEBOSH course go into the practical side because I really want a course that's going to be very practical, rather than just going over legislation. Can anyone let me know what this course involves or if there are any other courses they would recommend?
Thanks.
- Ian Rienewerf
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 2859
- Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:09 am
- 17
- Occupation: Risk Management Systems
- Location: Morpeth, Northumberland
- Been thanked: 39 times
- Contact:
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
The fire service college used to do 3 practicals (about 4-hrs each with presentations and feedback).
You do an initial FRA, then you and another team audit each others work to pick faults.
Then you do a pukka FRA properly using the knowledge gained from the 1st two exercises (the assessment & audit practicals)
The format has been improved so civilians like ourselves can go in and fully understand the fire service terminology without doing the 2-week foundation course.
A good course if you can afford to take the full week off work.
You do an initial FRA, then you and another team audit each others work to pick faults.
Then you do a pukka FRA properly using the knowledge gained from the 1st two exercises (the assessment & audit practicals)
The format has been improved so civilians like ourselves can go in and fully understand the fire service terminology without doing the 2-week foundation course.
A good course if you can afford to take the full week off work.
http://www.irems.co.uk
Risk management for companies with 5 to 50 employees
Risk management for companies with 5 to 50 employees
- Messy
- Grand Shidoshi
- Posts: 3588
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:59 am
- 17
- Occupation: 46 years experience with a metropolitan Fire Brigade and then Fire Safety Manager for a global brand.
Now sort of retired from the fire safety game, but doing the odd job here and there to keep my grey matter working and as I hate sudoku and havent got the back for an allotment - Location: Sunny London where the streets are paved with gold ;)
- Has thanked: 369 times
- Been thanked: 663 times
Re: Fire risk assessment audit
CHAZZMAN wrote:Hi there
Just to go slightly off at a tangent!
I had a visit this week from the Fire Service (to serve notice), managed to duck it, as the council is the responsible person.
You think you are having problems with FRA's !!!
They are too
How did the fire servce make this error? They are supposed to determine the RP during the audit.
Be warned, that you can have more than one responsible person, both or all of whom can be prosecuted in certain circumstances.