Hi all.
I would like to ask for some help please , as I am In a situation at my workplace.
There is a lot of working at height tasks to be done, and my advice is asked for.
Most of the tasks involve use of subcontractors, and the tasks are where working at height cannot be avoided, and involved use of a scaffold to be erected.
The company permit to work procedure states permit writers must be passed as competent to write,issue, and oversee the permit - fine
The company working at height procedure states that a working at height permit is required when there is no or unsuitable edge protection. (Unguarded roofs etc)
We have a conflict in opinions between bosses (quite high up in the company). One wants a working at height permit for every working at height task that is not short duration,and the other is saying they only want a working at height permit when there is no or unsuitable edge protection.
This causes a lot of friction, as the company do not have that many competent persons to issue the permits.
So they have come to me , the "safety guy" for a resolution.
It is often construed that the higher up people are (say a mewp) the more dangerous it is. We all know that is not true, as I would consider someone on top of a leaning ladder putting a fairy ontop of a large Christmas tree more dangerous.
Any help is appreciated as I have a meeting soon !
Thanks
Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
Hi mate
I'm not sure if I am picking you up correctly re and the other is saying they only want a working at height permit when there is no or unsuitable edge protection.
You will have to have some form of collective fall protection (Working at height regs)
Will
I'm not sure if I am picking you up correctly re and the other is saying they only want a working at height permit when there is no or unsuitable edge protection.
You will have to have some form of collective fall protection (Working at height regs)
Will
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
Thanks Will.
Sorry I wasn't clear.
I guess what I am asking is when is the trigger point for a working at height permit is required ?
Sorry I wasn't clear.
I guess what I am asking is when is the trigger point for a working at height permit is required ?
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
Going from the information in the original post your Work at Height Procedure states that a permit is required when there is no or unsuitable edge protection.
If there is a fully erected scaffold then that should provide adequate edge protection so no need for a permit as per your procedure.
As for the boss who wants a permit for every work at height activity, I would suggest collating the information for the last few months as to how many work at height tasks have been conducted and point out the amount of time that would be spent on raising, issuing, overseeing and handing back permits for some of the more trivial tasks if he insists on permits for every one.
There is a lot of evidence for people dying from falls from relativity low height and also people walking away with fairly insignificant injuries from falls from significant height.
If the procedure says a permit is not required and the boss is insisting that a permit is produced then I'd also suggest amending the procedure to reflect this.
If there is a fully erected scaffold then that should provide adequate edge protection so no need for a permit as per your procedure.
As for the boss who wants a permit for every work at height activity, I would suggest collating the information for the last few months as to how many work at height tasks have been conducted and point out the amount of time that would be spent on raising, issuing, overseeing and handing back permits for some of the more trivial tasks if he insists on permits for every one.
There is a lot of evidence for people dying from falls from relativity low height and also people walking away with fairly insignificant injuries from falls from significant height.
If the procedure says a permit is not required and the boss is insisting that a permit is produced then I'd also suggest amending the procedure to reflect this.
"The more you try to make something idiot proof, the more likely someone is to prove you wrong"
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
Thanks for the responses.
I have written to the procedure writer as that statement regarding edge protection alone to me is a little ropey, so I would want a little more clarity.
Putting up a scaffold has a lot of factors to consider,as does using a mewp and so on, and I am not comfortable with just a set of RAMS (maybe others are , and I am going over the top?).
I have written to the procedure writer as that statement regarding edge protection alone to me is a little ropey, so I would want a little more clarity.
Putting up a scaffold has a lot of factors to consider,as does using a mewp and so on, and I am not comfortable with just a set of RAMS (maybe others are , and I am going over the top?).
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
Hello an update on this.
We have had a discussion (and others), and the picture I'm afraid is more murky.
I get the point about scaffolds providing edge protection, but what about erecting it , and a situation of not clipping on in the process, no fall prevention ?
I have seen some examples permits on the HSE website mentioning fragile surfaces, roofs without edge protection, and also a mention of a fall being more than 2 metres (bearing in mind the 2 metre rule was scratched).
My situation is, the contractors rams we get are never great when it comes to high risk work, residual risk always remains , of course we need to look at our prequal's as a whole.
We have had a discussion (and others), and the picture I'm afraid is more murky.
I get the point about scaffolds providing edge protection, but what about erecting it , and a situation of not clipping on in the process, no fall prevention ?
I have seen some examples permits on the HSE website mentioning fragile surfaces, roofs without edge protection, and also a mention of a fall being more than 2 metres (bearing in mind the 2 metre rule was scratched).
My situation is, the contractors rams we get are never great when it comes to high risk work, residual risk always remains , of course we need to look at our prequal's as a whole.
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Re: Working at height permit to work confusion and perception
On our sites we have a permit to work system.
We have a training module to train managers how to fill them out correctly.
If there is anyone working at height a permit is always issued, the only exception is when it is a routine task such as changing a lightbulb on the top of a truck where a safe system of work is followed.
If a contractor comes with a RAMS that is not suitable we send them away telling them what they need to work on.
We then monitor them closely and if they consistently come with poor RAMS we seek different contractors.
We have a training module to train managers how to fill them out correctly.
If there is anyone working at height a permit is always issued, the only exception is when it is a routine task such as changing a lightbulb on the top of a truck where a safe system of work is followed.
If a contractor comes with a RAMS that is not suitable we send them away telling them what they need to work on.
We then monitor them closely and if they consistently come with poor RAMS we seek different contractors.